Jennifer Yoffy  00:06

Welcome to Perfect Bound. I'm Jennifer Yoffy, the founder and publisher of Yoffy Press in Atlanta, Georgia. This is a podcast where we talk to artists about their journey, how they got where they are, what right and wrong turns they made along the way, and where they're heading next. Aaron Schuman is an American photographer, writer, editor, educator and curator based in the United Kingdom. He received a BFA in photography and art history from New York University's Tisch School of the Arts in 1999, and an MA in humanities and cultural studies from the London consortium in 2003. His work has been exhibited internationally and is held in many public and private collections. He is the author of two critically acclaimed monographs. Slant, published by Mack in 2019, and Folk, published by NB books in 2016. Both books were widely cited by photographers, critics and publications as one of the best photo books in their respective years. In addition to his own photographic work, Schuman has contributed essays, interviews and texts to many books. And he also regularly contributes to journals and magazines such as Aperture, Foam, Frieze, Hot Shoe, Magnum online, the British Journal of Photography, and more. Additionally, Schuman has curated several major international festivals and exhibitions and was the founder and editor of the online photography journal SeeSaw Magazine from 2004 to 2014. And since 2017, has been program leader of the Master's in photography program at the University of West England. Please welcome Aaron Schuman to the podcast.  I really appreciate you coming on. And I'm excited to talk to you. Slant was definitely one of my favorite books of the last couple years. Such an awesome surprise. Yeah, I actually didn't know anything about it when I bought it. It was just kind of like, year end, I'm reading all the best books and it kept coming up. And so I bought a few of the ones that were repetitive that way and didn't know anything about it. And then I looked it up. And you know, when I opened it, I was like, oh yeah, that's good.

Aaron Schuman  02:23

I really appreciate that. Thanks.

Jennifer Yoffy  02:24

Yeah , it was awesome.

Aaron Schuman  02:26

Yeah.

Jennifer Yoffy  02:27

So I have questions and I'll just jump in. Is that good?

Aaron Schuman  02:30

Yeah, go for it. Yeah.

Jennifer Yoffy  02:32

Okay, so you started out working in a pretty traditional straightforward black and white documentary style. And then your work has seemed to shift to embrace more of a conceptual slant, that was not an intended part. That's a bit of a critique of documentary while still working to say something about the world or making sense of it. And it feels like this is a larger shift that's happening, kind of as people are becoming more photographers are becoming more conscious of the pitfalls, and the inherent biases and biasses in observational photography. And I was curious where you came down on this issue, you know, if this is something that you think about, or it's just been kind of a natural evolution for you?

Aaron Schuman  03:22

I mean, it's something I definitely think about quite often. So when I started out making photographs, like, you know, as a teenager, and then into kind of college, I was pretty, like committed to mid 20th century photography, and a lot of ways like, I was really interested in that kind of tradition, and that approach, and aspire to, you know, follow in the footsteps of like, photographers, and Walker Evans, and, you know, and that kind of whole real documentary tradition. And it was, if I'm honest, like in college I was pretty resistant to kind of contemporary developments. And, of course, like I was in college during the 90s. So it was a lot of it was around kind of constructed imagery, and performative imagery, and then kind of quote unquote, snapshot aesthetic. So, you know, and I was, like, really committed to, you know, black and white Tri-X, you know, wanting to really kind of live the life of, I don't know, W. Eugene Smith, or, like I said, Walker Evans, or anybody like that. And, um, and so I think that was, like, a real stubbornness on my part during that period. And then after college, when I started to kind of explore a bit more about the world of photography now and contemporary photography, and through a few experiences I had then, it really started to kind of open up to me and in other ways, and I kind of started to come to terms with the fact that it wasn't 1958 and the world had changed quite dramatically and photography changed quite dramatically. And so, so yeah, so I started investigating how photographers kind of engage with a documentary aesthetic, but use it to more, I don't know, subjective ends or personal ends, or critical ends. And yeah, I started investigating that kind of area. So the other thing is that I'm kind of, in terms of a reader, I really love nonfiction like long form nonfiction, and, you know, long form essays and that type of work. So I started thinking about how photography could engage with the world in a similar way. And I really like, I kind of like the term nonfiction, because it's not saying it's fact, it's just fiction. So it kind of sits on that kind of ambiguous kind of border, where somebody can kind of tell a story through, you know, through kind of a narrative and through their own personal kind of experience. And it's kind of it's understood by the reader that this is something that's, that's both based on, you know, reality and factual kind of encounters and engagement with the world, but also is being kind of interpreted through the words or the lens of the person who's kind of presenting it. So, yeah,

Jennifer Yoffy  06:09

Yeah, because even if, you know, when you're reading nonfiction, I mean, it's still the perspective of the writer. Yeah. And even if they are attempting to portray two sides of a thing or multiple viewpoints, it's still their ethnicity and their entry point into the subject matter is going to make a difference in the story.

Aaron Schuman  06:38

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think it's also that idea of it kind of being a narrative and a journey that you go on with that person.

Jennifer Yoffy  06:44

It is exploratory...

Aaron Schuman  06:48

Yeah, they kind of take you by the hand and take you on this journey. And you know, that this journey is something that's, you know, happening out there in the real world, but it's also being kind of filtered through whoever it is, that's kind of guiding you through that, that experience. And that was something that was really exciting for me, it was an exciting way for me to think about photography and photographic practice, and some of my favorite photographers. I started kind of, you know, finding those kind of famous quotes by, by my heroes, who I had always kind of considered as very traditional documentary photographers, talking about how, you know, documentary is an aesthetic, and not a fact. And I don't know, Winogrand's kind of, you know, photographs show what the world looks like, photographed kind of those kinds of quotes that that started getting me really interested in that. And also, just as a viewer, and as a reader of photography and photo books, I really liked that engagement as well,  I liked feeling like I was being kind of brought along on this journey by these people. And but they were leaving it reasonably open ended and ambiguous. And sometimes there was a kind of tongue in cheek, kind of wink to you as a reader. And sometimes you don't, I mean, so there was a little bit more fluidity kind of going on, in that relationship between the photographer and myself. And so, yeah, I started to think about ways that I might be able to kind of incorporate that into my own practice, and loosen it up a bit, and not not kind of try to document the world. And of course, you know, also, all of this is happening at the same time that that, you know, social media and Instagram, and all of these things are happening as well. So, so also that idea of kind of showing people something they've never seen before, completely went out the window, because you can, yeah, you can type anything into Google image or Instagram and see a million pictures of that thing. So so that also really made it a bit of a challenge, and a kind of fun challenge to think about how you, yeah, how you engage with the world beyond just trying to discover something, quote, unquote, new if you know what I mean.

Jennifer Yoffy  08:54

Yeah, it's like the concept can be new, the imagery is probably not. Its impossible to create complete uniqueness.

Aaron Schuman  09:03

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. And I think, you know, photography also has, I don't know, I always think of photography is like a language, it has all of these different dialects and, and accents and ways in which people kind of use that language. So the words might be the same, you know, what I mean, but, but the way that they're kind of being presented or, or being kind of, heard by the viewer, or, you know, read by the viewer kind of changes, depending on how that's being used. And I like that idea of kind of being able to adopt different kind of ways of, of saying what I want to say. So kind of speaking in these different dialects, and sometimes, I might use, like a, like a traditional documentary dialect, but other times, it might use a vernacular, you know, approach or, I don't know, you know, you kind of find all of these different ways in which your voice can kind of come out.

Jennifer Yoffy  10:00

Right, and there's more freedom.

Aaron Schuman  10:01

Yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot more freedom in that. And just as a, as a creative person, as a photographer, as an artist, like, that makes it really fun as well, because all of a sudden, it's not just about what's in the frame.

Jennifer Yoffy  10:15

Right? Kind of right, you're not boxed in.

Aaron Schuman  10:17

Yeah, it's not about the content. I mean, it is about the content, but it's not only about the content, it starts to become about everything else, all of the other decisions you're making in terms of composition, in terms of, you know, exposure, depth of fields, you know, framing what, what images you put that one next to and all of that sort of thing. So there's that whole puzzle, that whole game becomes a lot more fun and interesting. At that point. Yeah.

Jennifer Yoffy  10:44

So kind of a segue talking about putting images together, how important is the book to your practice? Do you imagine your major projects as books while you're developing them? Or do you make the work and determine the ideal format, after?

Aaron Schuman  11:00

I'd say, I'd say the book is really important to me, I feel like the relationship that can be built between images and between different material, you know, I mean, both of the books that I've made, so far, kind of incorporate both my own photographs, but also kind of like ephemera, or objects or, you know, clippings, that sort of thing. So I, I like that idea of building relationships, and creating this kind of conversation that's going on between lots and lots of different things. And the individual images are really important to me, like I want every one of those images to, to be able to exist on its own, independently of the rest. So that's part of my editing process is a question of, like, is this picture a valid, interesting, you know, image? Or is it only that because of the other ones that are around it? And, you know, I really kind of question those things. But I also, once I have that kind of confirmation that each picture feels right to me, then I also realize that they grow like exponentially as soon as they're mixed together in in various ways, some some ways in which are really successful, other ways don't work. And so that's how the editing process comes into play. And so the book, you know, when I started just discovering the book, and how versatile that could be, and how interesting that could make images that it didn't have to be just a catalogue of individual works, but that it could have all of this texture and these kind of meta narratives and like, you know, underlying motifs that could come back and forth. And I don't know that whole relationship when you put two pictures next to each other, and then I don't know, take one away and put another one next to it, the picture that stays there, all of a sudden changes in really interesting ways. So. So that really expanded my excitement for the photographic medium as well, because I started to understand that yes, an individual photograph could be a singular work of art, but so could a set of 40 photographs. And that could be a individual single piece. If you know what I mean, a work of art. And that that was exciting for me. Yeah.

Jennifer Yoffy  13:22

Yeah. When you were working on your book projects, did you What were you doing the edit and sequence and layout mostly on your own? Or were you collaborating with the designer or with the publisher?

Aaron Schuman  13:35

For both of them I was pretty independent. Like, up until, like, 85% of the way if you know what I mean. So I kind of, you know, so I kind of I, I spent a lot of time trying to conceive of how this would work. Maybe I'm a little bit of a control freak in that sense that I didn't even want to show it to the publishers or the designers until I felt like, I was almost there, if you know what I mean. But then you reach a certain point where you just can't see the wood for the trees. And you kind of feel like, maybe there is another way to do this, or maybe you see a kind of a chink in the fence and you think like, I wish somebody else would fix this for me, you know, and so yeah, so then at that point, then I then I kind of started speaking with the, you know, the designers and the publishers and asking their kind of input on that kind of thing. So I can't take all the credit and there are definitely kind of decisions which are generally kind of seemingly minor but actually incredibly important,  that I got help with in the sense of just things like scale, or layout or design or, or even just the object in its own right, because, you know, publishers and designers have all of this incredible knowledge about papers and materials and printing processes and cover materials and textures and you know, all of the things that you don't even think about when you're just shuffling work prints around on a table. Right? And so that, that that was incredibly useful and helpful thing to kind of get some input on. But, you know, the sequence itself, you know, I would say was kind of 85 90% there for both books before I started kind of opening it up to other people to play with.

Jennifer Yoffy  15:23

Yeah, I was curious about that, with Yoffy Press, I do projects both ways. So sometimes people come and I'm like, this is 80, or 90% there. And it's like brainstorming those last couple of fixes, or, you know, just the, if we could just tweak this or, you know, add this image, take this one out. And then I have projects where I'm literally starting with 600 images and I'm like Alright, let me get back to you in a year. (Laughs) I spend time with it. And, and it's, um, you know, some artists are better at looking at their work objectively than others. For me, you know, I don't have a preference or a difference.

Aaron Schuman  16:08

Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, and that challenge is really exciting for me, as well, like, if a photographer shows me a bunch of work, and just says, I have no idea what to do with all these pictures. They seem to be about something.

Jennifer Yoffy  16:18

I love it, too. It's the puzzle.

Aaron Schuman  16:20

It's the puzzle. And I yeah, I really love that kind of challenge, and engaging in that challenge. And also, not having that, like, personal connection to every picture. All of a sudden, you know, I don't know, there's just, like, every picture can mean so many different things. Whereas with the photographer, or in my case, if it's my own work, like, I feel like, this is what this picture is about. And then if somebody else comes along and says, actually, there's potential for it to kind of fit in this way, you know, and, and kind of change it up a bit. That's really exciting for me too, because it opens, all of a sudden, the pictures kind of open up to me in new ways that I didn't ever expect. Yeah, so that's, yeah, that's exciting. But it's, it's, I mean, I run like, I run a master's program over here, and have lots of students and you know, and lots of photographer friends who have that. I think it's a trait of a lot of photographers who are really committed to their work, but like, like, they just need to finish it themselves. Like they want one more picture, I need one more thing, or I don't want to show it to anybody until it's perfect. And there's this kind of real protectiveness, or kind of insecurity that goes along with something where people feel like it has to be totally resolved, before they show it to a publisher or an editor or anybody.

Jennifer Yoffy  17:38

People can also get trapped in their own spiral of editing and pulling it apart and starting over.

Aaron Schuman  17:46

Yeah, exactly.

Jennifer Yoffy  17:47

That's awesome. Yeah, it's a slippery slope, I think.

Aaron Schuman  17:50

Yeah, I think it can be. You know, I've seen people whose projects, you know, run on for 12 years, because they can't, like they can't just finish it themselves. And I learned from seeing that. I really encouraged my students, and also learned to encourage myself to kind of like, you know, open it up a little bit. And the fact is that publishers and designers and editors, and all of these other people that you're showing your work to, like they have expertise and knowledge and input, and they can really help you along the way. And there's not a lot of publishers that like, just want to like the thing perfectly formed. Yeah, like their only job is to go to the printers and print it out and sell it. Do you don't I mean? I don't think a lot of publishers in photography, at least are like interested in just being that middle person that goes between the photographer and the printing press.

Jennifer Yoffy  18:48

I mean, there's no money in publishing. So we've got to have fun somehow.

Aaron Schuman  18:51

Exactly. Yeah.

Jennifer Yoffy  18:52

Yeah. Yeah, managing the print production is not it. Yeah. That's not the fun part. Yeah, I'm, actually have a question. That's kind of the opposite of what we're talking about. Because I often feel and, and this might also lend itself a little bit more to less experienced photographers, but they get really eager to get their work out and to publish it as a book. And they rush the project. And they don't spend enough time experimenting and thinking through how to push it in ways that would be really impactful. And in reading about your process of putting together Slant, I think it's a great example of a project that could have easily been like pretty good, but ultimately not noteworthy if you'd run with one of the first concepts that came to mind like just displaying the text alone or creating images that were attended to, you know, literally visually describe the text. And so when you're teaching or generally counseling, any photographer, how much of an emphasis do you put on the importance of research and experimentation and giving projects time to evolve? Granted I'm not talking to the people that are 12 years down the line on one project. People that are going any other way.

Aaron Schuman  20:04

I mean, yeah, research and experimentation, I like the, like pretty much the fundamentals of like the curriculum I developed for the master's program that I run. So it's kinda like, that's super important to me. I might even overemphasize it to a certain extent, because, but I really, I really do think those are, like, fundamental core aspects of making any body of work, really understanding the kind of subject matter, the content, the references, all of the things that that are playing off of your of your work, the experiences you're having in your own life that are playing off that work. And then also, yeah, pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone a little bit and trying, trying to see what happens when you change it up a bit, and not being afraid for things to fail or to not work out, you know, that's part of the process. I think, I mean, one of the big changes that I've seen in terms of, you know, I've been teaching now for about 13 or 14 years, and maybe longer 15 years. And because of the rise of the digital, like, there's this, this, I don't know that there's this kind of obsession with every frame being perfect. And if it's not perfect, you just delete it and, you know, move on to the next and that sort of thing. And, and I think that's a real shame. Because often, you know, six months down the line, you realize, like, these pictures that you wish you didn't delete, you know, deleted are great. So, I think...

Jennifer Yoffy  21:25

I have so many of those. I should have deleted them.

Aaron Schuman  21:30

So I think, Yeah...

Jennifer Yoffy  21:31

Keep going back, Yup, still nothing. (laughs)

Aaron Schuman  21:33

Yeah. I mean, there's that, you know, the classic story of Robert Frank's The Americans, and he shot something like 300,000 photographs and printed 62, or whatever the numbers are, you know what I mean? So, I think you have to be able to allow yourself to like, yeah, to play and experiment, and then push yourself a little bit. But, yeah, I'm just kind of, I mean, that was something that I had to learn myself, I was really as a, as a young photographer, like, straight out of college, and I was really impatient. And I wanted to, like, get my work out and like, be able to do a project in six months, and so on. And I think, you know, you just realized over time that it's like, it's a long game, things take time to develop and mature and evolve. Sometimes they just have to go into hibernation for you know, a little while before they start to kind of reemerge or something different.

Jennifer Yoffy  22:24

Yeah, it's probably also like, in school, you have assignments, and you have this finite time, you know, like, you have to do your senior thesis show, or whatever it is where you are expected to have it all wrapped up in a bow, in a discrete period of time. And so it maybe trains us to do it that way.

Aaron Schuman  22:44

Yeah, no, absolutely. I often say to my students, like, just think of this project as like, as the first chapter of the rest of your work. This isn't, this doesn't have to be your life's work, it doesn't have to represent everything you've ever done. You know, it's not going to necessarily be the statement piece that you know, defines you for the rest, you know, this is this is just the beginning. And it's a long game, and people are gonna, you know, make new bodies of work and evolve and go in different directions. So, so yeah, I mean, I think, I think that's important, but I also totally empathize with just being impatient. And being a young photographer desperate to like, show the world your work and get it out there and see it on a shelf....

Jennifer Yoffy  23:27

And be famous! I'm ready to be famous already. (laughs)

Aaron Schuman  23:31

(Laughs) Yeah, well, it's not even about being famous. I think it's just because like you said, like, there's not so much money in this world. So the kind of rewards are really, like getting other people's attention, and, and them seeing it and engaging with it. And kind of, yeah, and getting it, you know. There's nothing more rewarding than putting the work out there and then finding out the other people get it. You know, that was a big concern for me with with Slant and with other projects that I've put out there is that kind of thing. Like, I think this is pretty good, but I have no idea what others..., you know, like, I think it's fun and funny and quirky, and kind of, you know, but other people might just be like, what the hell is this thing you know, and then there's something really rewarding, that kind of sense that people get to you and people know where you're coming from, and, and also kind of respond in ways that you never expected them to, and find new meanings that open up your your brain as well. So, yeah, so yeah, I empathize. I empathize with that kind of impatience. But I do think, you know, my favorite my favorite photographers in the world, like, in terms of the history of photography, you know, they have been or were around a long time. They were, you know, they have 50 year long careers and they evolve and they develop and they change, you know, it takes decades. And so, you know, if you're committed to this, and you've kind of, or you're kind of addicted to this world, you know, it's, you might spend 40, 50, 60 years doing it. And so you have to kind of recognize that time is a part of it and patience, as well.

Jennifer Yoffy  25:19

I think the research piece too, is super important. It's amazing to me, you know, doing like, reviewing portfolios, and someone shows something, it's like, oh, have you? This reminds me, (I'm saying) this reminds me of this work or that work? Or have you looked at this? And they're like, No. There's just not that awareness of how your work is fitting into a bigger context or a bigger conversation. I was reading about, like, who you specifically researched, when you were doing Slant about pairing images and text and that helped you and gave you additional ideas. And I mean, to me, you're putting so much into a project and to put it out in the world and, and not have a full understanding of how it fits in, that's a mistake.

Aaron Schuman  26:14

No, I entirely agree. Yeah.

Jennifer Yoffy  26:18

This is a really dumb example. But I years ago, I went to Portland, Oregon, and I wanted to get a bird tattoo. And I did not know of the skit Portlandia that put a bird on it until literally the day before I went. I told a friend like, Oh, I'm gonna get this tattoo in Portland. What are you gonna get? "Birds." And she, like, lost it, like, lost her mind and was hysterically laughing like, Oh, that's amazing. And I was like, I don't get it. And she was like, Oh, my God. And like, you know, so I still got the tattoo, but I could at least be up front about like, oh, put a bird on it in Portland. Instead of feeling like an asshole.

Aaron Schuman  27:05

Yeah, you totally get the reference. It becomes kind of an ironic take on that.

Jennifer Yoffy  27:10

Yes, exactly. That's, that's what I was going for.

Aaron Schuman  27:15

Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Yoffy  27:16

Um, so collaboration is a very high value of mine, it seems like you share that value as well. And I loved reading about how you started SeeSaw magazine, kind of as a reaction to and an antidote for the competitiveness that you're experiencing in photography shortly after leaving school? In what ways do you feel collaboration has benefited you as an artist and just as a human?

Aaron Schuman  27:43

I mean, yeah, I think the collaborative aspects of things, though, yeah.... Like you said, after university, or after college, I like I felt really, I really enjoyed the university environment, experience and having this kind of group of people that I could engage with. And then as soon as it finished, like, everybody went out there, and I still maintain friendships with various people and that sort of thing. But, but yeah, you're all of a sudden, you're kind of thrown out there on your own, and there's a kind of real independent spirit to it. And it's, and, you know, partially, it's, like, it does become competitive, in a sense. So you've kind of feel this, the sense of, you're always comparing yourself to each other. And I got really kind of fed up with that feeling. And that sense of, of, like, you know, I wanted to celebrate other people's successes, when I had a friend or, you know, somebody who I went to school with, or whatever, get something published, like, I was excited for them, you know, and I was, and I was, and I was also at that point in my life kind of bouncing between England, like London and New York, because my girlfriend at the time, who is my wife now was British, so she was doing her master's in London. And then I was in New York, and I was kind of bouncing back and forth. And I was starting to develop a community of people in London, whose work I really admired and liked. And so part of like, starting off SeeSaw was really about initially wanting to show my friends in New York what my friends in London we're doing and with my friends in London what my friends in New York, we're doing you know; kind of creating some sort of bridge between those those worlds. And, and just by doing that magazine, and starting to kind of play around with that, I just got excited about sharing work or sharing other people's work with each other. And so like, that was probably my initial kind of collaborative effort with that, that idea of like, I want to be, you know, a cheerleader, a champion of other people's practice because I think what they're doing is really interesting and engaging. And, and that led me down like a whole path of collaborative opportunities that are really like the backbone of my career in a lot of ways because, you know, it led on to, to writing quite a bit about photography to curating exhibitions, yeah to kind of working in collectives that sort of thing. And I also kind of started to realize that there was this little this like photo world, which, which, you know, you're very familiar with as well, which is a really small world, but it's like, it's full of like, the most incredible people. And those are often the most generous people ever. Because, again, going back to it, there's not a huge, you know, financial reward to what, what this world offers. So it really is about these relationships and these connections that you build with other people. And I really, really value that and appreciate that. And it's not like a kind of networking kind of thing. I'm not into the networking thing, but I'm interested in spending my time with people who are into what I'm into, and are my friends and are also just, like, just amazing, creative artists and designers, and thinkers, that sort of thing. So, yeah, so I get a lot of inspiration off of that as well, that collaborative process, I feel like, it really helps give me a sense of motivation, and, like, wanting to share stuff with friends and have them share stuff with me. and support each other and really kind of like push each other to, to kind of do interesting things together. Right?

Jennifer Yoffy  31:25

Like, more is more.

Aaron Schuman  31:26

Yeah, more is more. Yeah.

Jennifer Yoffy  31:29

So in addition to being a photographer, like you said, you're a writer, curator, teacher.... How do you feel that these different perspectives contribute to your artistic practice? Or is it hard for you to switch gears?

Aaron Schuman  31:43

Yeah, I mean, that was something that took a long time as well. I mean, like I said, initially, like, I started SeeSaw magazine, just because I, to be honest, like, I was a freelance photographer with a lot of free time on my hands. And, and, you know, so I started doing that just as a way of kind of staying engaged and building new friendships and relationships, and, you know, learning about what was going on in photography in the world. And that led me down this road of kind of doing a lot of writing because SeeSaw, it kind of it was one of the kind of, like, like, there were other people that are doing blogs, but I don't think there were that many, like magazines online when I started doing that. So the only reason I published it online was because I didn't have the money or the budget or, or the kind of, like, I couldn't get advertising. I didn't know how to get advertising or anything printed. Okay, I would have printed it if I could, but it was just easier to build a, you know, like a really basic website. So but yeah, so all of a sudden, like, a lot of people seem to kind of respond to that. And it got me going down this road of writing, and then doing some curatorial projects. And, and then I started teaching also through that. So doing that, like benefited me greatly. It kind of led me down all these really interesting paths. But I started to do this compartmentalizing thing where I felt like, every day I was wearing a different hat or doing a different job. So like Monday, I was teaching and Tuesday, I was curating something, Wednesday, I was writing an article. And you know, and Thursday, I was trying to make my own work. And I felt really hectic and schizophrenic. If you know whatI  mean. I then I had an opportunity to do this to curate this festival in Poland. And part of that was also there was a commission that I wanted to do as a kind of visiting artists in one of the museums that was part of that festival. So I kind of took the opportunity to like, find a way to start creating some sort of Venn diagram where my curation overlapped with my photographic practice, which also overlapped with some of the research that I was doing. And then I started realizing I could develop like lectures, and teaching methods off the back of that. And so it was only about kind of seven or eight years ago that I started to realize that rather than trying to like, think of all of these things as being separate like that, they were actually all one thing. And at the heart of them is really my own practice. Like the reason I started writing about photography was so that I could understand how other people were doing something so that I could do it myself if you know what I mean. And so, so yeah, so I started realizing that actually, like, all of these things are just one giant kind of solar system. That then really defines me as my my kind of creative practice. So yeah, so so I tried to bring them all together now and think of them all as the same thing. So yeah, I'm trying to try to have projects that helped me to understand the overlaps and the kind of the relationships between all of all of those things and then the projects I've been doing like Slant or like the previous book Folk, you know, involve my own photography, but they also involve a certain amount of editing and curation. And, you know, text and research. And so, so yeah, that was a, that was a huge eye opener to me, just to see that actually... Like, if I was doing one of these things, I was actually, like benefiting all of the rest at the same time. As long as I was conscious and careful of that, and didn't get distracted by doing something that had nothing to do with everything else that I was doing.

Jennifer Yoffy  35:37

That's, that's my problem. Like, ooh, but that would be fun, too. I'll start a podcast. I mean, how hard can that be? So I think I warned you that I asked everyone about the best and worst decision. So what was the best? What do you consider to be the best career decision you've made?

Aaron Schuman  35:59

Um, I mean, I think it a lot of it relates, I think, I mean, it seems super cliche to say, but it gets like some kind of horrible job interview, but like, like, the answer to both of those questions is kind of the same thing in a weird way. And it kind of relates to what we were just talking about, which is that idea that like, the best thing that I've done, I feel like is really like open up to photography through all of these different avenues and channels. So rather than kind of saying, like, strictly like, I'm just gonna take pictures in this specific way, for the rest of my life, and do this one thing, I kind of like, yeah, just opened up my field of vision and realized that I could engage with this medium that I really love. And I love what it brings to my life in all of these different ways and engage with all of these different projects, like you said, you know, like, why don't I start a podcast, why don't I start a magazine? Why don't I like, you know, pitch an exhibition to curate, you know, but like, for me that that eclectic kind of approach to my practice has just been, by far the best thing I've ever done, because I think I would have been quite kind of lonely and kind of stagnating a bit if I had just followed like that one path. But on the flip side of that, you know, it's difficult, you know, look, in retrospect, like, it's difficult, I think, for other people to really, like, explain, like, there's no elevator pitch of like, what I do. I mean, it's because every project that I kind of deal with, I try to deal with in a different way, or I try to come at it from a different angle, just to keep myself excited and alive and kind of engaged. So rather than just falling into routines, or patterns, like wanting to kind of find new ways of doing things. And, and, you know, researching other people that do that there's so many other artists and photographers that have done that, including the people I was talking about before, when you think about somebody like Walker Evans, you know, like, yes, he made photographs, but he also, you know, curated exhibitions, and he also edited magazines and he also taught that, you know, like at Yale he also wrote incredible essays about photography, and gave incredible lectures, you know, so, so I started to realize that, that, like, this isn't anything new, that other people have kind of done that. But I also started to, you know, also recognize that, like, yeah, that there, there are people out there that, that did find a path and kind of, like, stick with it, and, or they find an aesthetic, or they find a subject matter, and they just go for it. And that's, like all consuming for them. And I really appreciate that and respect that in a lot of people. But it's also easy for me to kind of, you know, say their name to you and you immediately have a picture of like, what they do, or how they do it, or what their pictures look like or what they're interested in. And, and I think Yeah, I'm still trying to kind of find that way where I can kind of explain what it is that I'm doing to other people in less than like, two paragraphs. My wife's always like teasing and saying like you have way too many slashes in your bio like or commas.

Jennifer Yoffy  39:29

When people asked me for a bio that's like, you know, a very limited number of words. I'm like, oh, what major aspect of my photo career am I just gonna not mention?

Aaron Schuman  39:42

Yeah, she's like, you can't you can't be a photographer slash curator slash writer slash teacher slash, like, What the hell are you? You know? So yeah, I mean, it's always this constant. You know, that's what niggles at me. That kind of thing of like, I wish I wish there was some way that I could kind of condense it but at the same time, every time I think of doing that I think, like, but then I would lose all of this other experience and excitement that I really enjoy. So,yeah.

Jennifer Yoffy  40:08

Yeah, you're just a renaissance man of photographic...

Aaron Schuman  40:12

Well, yeah, it's either that or a jack of all trades and master of none.

Jennifer Yoffy  40:17

I think mine is better. A publicist you are not.

Aaron Schuman  40:24

Yeah, that kind of self deprecation of England has gotten to me. (laughs)

Jennifer Yoffy  40:31

So you've worn many hats successfully in the photo world, do you feel like you've accomplished everything that you had originally set out to do photographically? Or is there still a lot you want to do? Or both?

Aaron Schuman  40:45

Oh, God, I mean, no, I think there's a million things that I'd still like to accomplish. I'm not, it's not accomplishing and that sense of kind of, like ticking boxes and feeling validated....

Jennifer Yoffy  40:54

Right, but if you were talking to just out of school you and said, like, Oh, in however many years I would have curated these shows and had these books, and had a master's program.

Aaron Schuman  41:06

In college, I had this this teacher who was a bit of a hippie, but she was, you know, I had a bit of, I had one of those panic attack kind of moments, about a year out of college. I think a lot of people go through it....

Jennifer Yoffy  41:18

I was gonna say, that sounds familiar (laughs)

Aaron Schuman  41:21

Where you're just like, what am I doing with my life? Like, like, this isn't what I expected, you know?

Jennifer Yoffy  41:27

Were you pass out on the bathroom floor somewhere? No, that wasn't you.

Aaron Schuman  41:31

(Laughs) Yeah, so I wrote this like letter to, you know, it's the most embarrassing email I think I've ever sent. But I sent it to all my professors at college just being like...

Jennifer Yoffy  41:41

(Laughs) It was so embarassing that you wanted everyone to read it.

Aaron Schuman  41:46

Exactly. It was group email. And, but, you know, I had, I had one teacher who was like, she's, she was a bit of like, not hippy, but you know, just a little bit laid back about life a little bit more, but she did that kind of classic John lennon, quote, "Life is what happens when you're making plans," kind of thing. And I think, like, when I look back at what I wanted, like what I wanted to do and accomplish when I was, I don't know, 16 and getting into photography, and then when I was 21 and then when I was 30. Like, it changes constantly. And like, like what I wanted when I was 20. Like, I would not want that. Like, I'm glad that didn't happen. (Laughs) Like it would have just, it's just not so.... Um, so yeah, I mean, I think, I don't know, it's it's a journey. It's a career. That sounds horrible. But yeah, so it's a it's a journey that's constantly changing. And yeah, there are a lot of things that I really want to, like, try out, I guess it's not really like, accomplish, but it's more like experience.

Jennifer Yoffy  42:49

Like what?

Aaron Schuman  42:51

I don't know, I mean, yeah, like I said, like, I'd like to experiment with I guess, like in terms of my own work - kind of exhibition work a little bit more. Like, I've had a lot of fun dealing with books. And I'd like to make a lot more books and kind of find new ways to make books. But I'm still trying to figure out how my own work, can engage with the with a gallery space. Because I think up into this point made a lot of my work for the book. When it comes to the exhibition point. I'm like, how do I, how do I translate this? You know, how do you move? How do you translate all of this book into something that exists on a wall and that sort of thing? That's not just the book on wall.

Jennifer Yoffy  43:36

I often am working on the reverse problem, where it's like, well I don't want to create something that looks like an exhibition catalog?

Aaron Schuman  43:43

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'd like to work on. I'd like to find something that I can work on, like long term, but in a, like a genuinely long term way, kind of something that, that takes over for, you know, 10 years or whatever, not, not in the sense of just procrastinating, but in a sense of kind of something that develops and evolves and gain some sort of weight and depth over over that period of time.

Jennifer Yoffy  44:14

Because of the time.

Aaron Schuman  44:16

Yeah. Because of the time. Yeah, I don't know. I'm just, I'm just open to Yeah, I'm open to see what happens. I'm hoping, you know, and it's also you know, you reach a certain age and you just think, like, okay, I also just want to stay engaged, like I don't want to become, you know, out of step or out of touch or irrelevant or, you know, so I think that's why I continue to do the kind of other stuff to the curating and the writing and stuff because I just want to maintain that sense of like excitement about the new and like, what's happening now.

Jennifer Yoffy  44:50

Yeah and stay plugged in with what's happening. Because I do think it's easy as an artist to kind of retreat into your own silo.

Aaron Schuman  44:58

Yeah, no, absolutely. But there are people, you know, the people I really admire, people like Robert Adams or Lee Friedlander, or, you know, who have just been at it for so long, and they just continue to kind of, I don't know, I think their passion for it or their commitment is still as alive as it was when they were, you know, starting out. And that's, that's kind of what I aspire to. I want to be as excited about photography, as I was when I was 16 and 19 and 30. And now, I want to, you know, I want to still feel that kind of excitement for it because I'm a real photo nerd. I'm a real photo geek. I get a lot of out of the medium.

Jennifer Yoffy  45:53

I once had tea at Robert Adams' house.

Aaron Schuman  45:55

Wow. Yeah.

Jennifer Yoffy  45:56

He lives in Astoria, Oregon, which is my most favorite place on the planet. And he has on his front door, like one of those storm doors. It's just like all for anti-fracking bumper stickers. I'm like Okay, noted. (laughs) Very intense.

Aaron Schuman  46:02

He's so smart and so gentle. It's just all about the love for it. You know what I mean? There's no ulterior motives. There's no ego, really, to what he's doing.

Jennifer Yoffy  46:36

Yeah. And he'll like, people write in letters and he writes back, and it was really kind of adorable, but um, he was needing some toner or something for the darkroom and he was like, gonna drive to Portland to do it. And we were trying to explain, like, you can go online. He's like, Well, my, we don't have the internet here. But my neighbor across the street has it, maybe.... It was like, Okay. (laughs)

Aaron Schuman  47:08

You're like I have a signal right now. (laughs)

Jennifer Yoffy  47:11

Right? What do you want? What do you want? I got the Amazon app right here on my phone. (laughs)