Jennifer Yoffy  00:06

Welcome to Perfect Bound. I'm Jennifer Yoffy, the founder and publisher of Yoffy Press in Atlanta, Georgia. This is a podcast where we talk to artists about their journey, how they got where they are, what right and wrong turns they made along the way and where they're heading next. Abelardo Morell was born in Havana, Cuba in 1948. He immigrated to the United States with his parents in 1962. He received his undergraduate degree from Bowdoin College and his MFA from the Yale University School of Art. He's received honorary degrees from Bowdoin College in 1997 and from Lesley University in 2014. He has published eight monographs, and was included in the second Yoffy Press Triptych, Continuum. He's received a number of awards and grants, which include a Guggenheim Fellowship in 1994, and an Infinity Award in art from ICP in 2011. In November 2017, he received a Lucea Award for achievement and fine art. His work has been collected and shown in galleries and institutions across the world, and nearly 80 museums in the United States and abroad. A retrospective of his work organized jointly by the Art Institute of Chicago, the Getty in Los Angeles, and the High Museum in Atlanta, closed in May of 2014, after a year of travel. I am honored to have Abe Morell, an artist who I think is having the most fun of anyone, to the podcast today. Thank you so much for doing this today. I'm super excited. Do you want to just jump in?

Abe Morell  01:52

Yeah, why not?

Jennifer Yoffy  01:53

Okay.

Abe Morell  01:53

Well, I mean, I'm the expert on me.

Jennifer Yoffy  01:56

You sure are. You know all the things. I'm talking to the right person. So something that I thought was interesting, that I was reading about and saw some in some video interviews of you, you're talking about being Cuban. And but you said that you're the most American of your relatives, but you still haven't become an American citizen. And I recognize that you left Cuba at a young age and under circumstances of a revolution. And I wanted to know, from your perspective, how you feel that shaped or informed your photographic vision.

Abe Morell  02:38

Okay, so I was 13 when I left, so not real young, not real old. So it's a it's actually a very interesting age, in terms of changing horses in mid stride, you know, so learning English in a whole new culture, was a very interesting age, because in some ways, it's perfect. You know, I know people who were older than that when they came to the States, and their accents are a lot thicker, you know, than mine, and some who came a lot younger, as babies. And those Cubans tend to have more fervor for Cuba than I do, you know, so it's, it's this weird alliance to the past.

Jennifer Yoffy  03:32

Even though they might have less of a memory of it.

Abe Morell  03:35

Exactly. Actually, sometimes, the less memory of it, the more committed you are to the Cuban-ness of you. So I think that's not just Cuba's, but I think it's typical of immigrants. I mean, if I could make an analogy, you know, people like your generation, they love film. Yeah. No, I mean, so I'm in a better position to say, Okay, I, I did film and now digital, it's fine. But a certain age. It's like, we took it away from you, and now you want it, you know? Is this a little bit of a similarity there? So the Cuban-ness um, you know, I basically grew up in New York City, went to college of Maine. I was very different from my relatives in Miami, who....Miami's is like little Cuba, so it doesn't push you to become an American so much. I like the idea of having to become an American and reading Hemingway and Thoreau and, you know, I mean, when in Rome, that's what, you know. Yeah. So I I mean, I liked American culture a lot. And so I'm not nostalgic about, you know, what I had in Cuba. I'm deeply Cuban in some sense, you know, it was my memories go back there. But I'm also realistic, you know, this is where we are, and I don't want to make a big deal out of the exile, because there could be a crutch to you know, you know, sort of victimhood and stuff, which I hate that kind of work, you know, it's like, I suffer a lot and get over it, you know? So where my Cuban-ness shows up is in my size of music, I love Cuban music, the music that my parents listened to, and all that, so that, that brings back a whole cloth, you know, just the sense of, like culture. But I, you know, I also don't want to say that my work is unrelated to being Cuba, but it's also, you know, um, I don't want to be put in a ghetto, you know, like, Okay, this is what Cubans do. And, and I hate that idea that someone will tell me what I'm supposed to be doing that is, when somebody asked about that, I just really pisses me off.

Jennifer Yoffy  06:28

Do you feel like you had started out your early years? As a street photographer? Do you feel like, because English was a second language, and you maybe used the camera to explore?

Abe Morell  06:46

Well, I mean, I went to college in 1967. And my English was not that good. And I discovered photography, I took a course with a wonderful professor and it was, it was made for me, you know? Making visual syntax out of the world, came easy visually. And so right away, I felt like, it was a way of naming things and putting thoughts together and putting visual worlds in some kind of order. And it was a very, very good find, for me, that it really was a language that I could use, right away too. It didn't, I didn't need a PhD in it, you know?

Jennifer Yoffy  07:39

When you've been able to adapt it, as well, you know, in through your career, you've used photography as a way to process and respond to your environment. So starting as a street photographer, and then you moved to a slower and more considered way of looking when your son was born, and you've spoken about that. And then when you began your camera obscura work, it was almost like you're bringing the street inside. You just talked about to film to digital. I mean, do you feel like adaptation and response has played an important role in shaping the way you work and the imagery that you're creating?

Abe Morell  08:22

That's a great word, adaptation. Yes, well, when one because a parent your marching orders are there, you can't just say Well, whatever, you know? I'm not Woody Allen, you know? No, the adaptation is inherent in being a parent. And so people fight it, I didn't, I just said, Okay, I'm not shooting in the streets anymore. I'm shooting you know, water, milk bottle, being beautiful in the light, you know? So it easily said, and I resented it, in some ways, Oh God, I'm stuck in an apartment, but it does make you feel like you can discover new worlds. You know, and, and they're interesting as well. I mean, just your preconceived idea. It's like, Okay, well, this apartment is not as interesting as Central Park. But you know what it could be? And I went for that.

Jennifer Yoffy  09:31

Something that I love about your work is its playfulness. And you're constantly experimenting and challenging the way that we see. And as a viewer, it just seems like you're having the best time. But as a serious artist and educator, how do you view the role of play in creating?

Abe Morell  09:53

It's essential otherwise, you become a grumpy old man.

Jennifer Yoffy  10:01

That is not you.

Abe Morell  10:02

I hope not. A lot of people like Calder, who, in his late age, he was still fooling around with little wires and stuff. I mean that sense of playfulness is, I mean, I think it's also inherently important in making science. So being a parent, I mean, the idea that life is play, which means that it's not set in stone. Today, you can throw it up in the air, tomorrow you can tumble it, you know, there's playfulness as a way to recreate the world. And in that sense, life becomes much more interesting, because if today doesn't work, maybe tomorrow, it will. And I think it's, it's just a great evolutionary technique.

Jennifer Yoffy  11:05

Definitely. I mean, in in that vein, you also kind of always seem to be up for anything, you're willing to try new things, and you're not overly precious about it. Um, I mean, I remember when I approached you out of the blue, we didn't know each other at the time, about being in the Yoffy Press triptych series. I mean, you didn't even pause you were like, Yeah, let's do it. And when I emailed you about being on the podcast, you wrote write back and said, Yeah, let's do it. Do you feel like, I mean, so we're seeing a huge volume of work come out of your experiments with photography, but how much of what you tried doesn't pan out? How much of your work? Are we not seeing?

Abe Morell  11:49

Its the iceberg below. I know the luxury of working a lot is that, you know, a lot goes wrong, or, you know, that the travel between an idea and the final product can be really long. But oftentimes, very quick. I mean, you see something, it reminds you of an idea. You shoot it. Max Labelle, who's my assistant I say, Yeah, right now let's do it. And sometimes it works beautifully. So there's a lot of wasted garbage, you know, of leading to something. But I must say that I've gotten better at previewing. It is almost pre-edited ideas coming to my mind. So they're, they're 80%, you know, in good shape. So right now I'm working on ideas of phantoms. And we've been really productive, Max and I , just getting stuff done. It's, I mean...

Jennifer Yoffy  13:09

You're just finding ghosts everywhere to photograph?

Abe Morell  13:13

Well, yeah. They're in my brain. (Laughs) But, but sometimes an idea really yields a lot. Some other ideas just don't, but I'm working a lot. It feels like I'm speeding up. Maybe it's the idea that I'm going to be 73 in September. And maybe I want to be able to leave more behind, you know, it's a deaf consciousness.

Jennifer Yoffy  13:44

Do you ever try an idea, it doesn't work, and maybe even years later come back to it with a new approach? Or are you kind of like... Tried it, moved on? You have so many concepts that you want to try? You're not kind of lingering?

Abe Morell  13:59

Yeah, that's a good question. Sometimes. In the past, I've tried something, but because of technical issues they weren't possible. But now that I have a super duper digital camera, it's possible. So I have revisited things from the past that just worked better now. You know, it's like having the right tool somehow makes the past a little bit more possible. So yeah, for sure.

Jennifer Yoffy  14:32

I feel like I've read in many places, you know, people calling you a magician. And I can't say I don't have that same exact reaction when you had that big show at the High Museum. It was almost like every other photo I was like Oh, how did he do that`? And then when we were doing the triptych series, and you, with Irina and Alyssa you wanted to do their profile in paper. And my first, well my first thought was, Why doesn't the publisher need a profile and paper? Just throwing that out there? But then I like I still can't figure out how you do that.

Abe Morell  15:12

Yeah, it's actually, I'm not, I mean, I'm not a very good magician. But, but oftentimes, I get down to a very, very concrete level of things. So the idea of perspective changing or things being illusionary, I work at it, but I'm, I'm a kind of a rough magician. But part of it is the demons that I have that require me, its like sometimes they control me and it's required me to, to be inventive. Now, that's been done before - it can be done better. I'm constantly paranoid about looking normal. I just don't want to be normal, you know, I mean, but I also don't want to be like, you know, taking acid all the time and just be Chappelle, you know. I'm just not that kind of guy. I'm not into being goofy that way. I do feel like I need to make something that hasn't quite been done the same way before. And that's my demons and my angels are working together on that.

Jennifer Yoffy  16:32

Yeah, that's a really lucky balance. I think a lot of people that have demons, don't use it for good. Can't channel it for good.

Abe Morell  16:43

Right. Although, my new series of ghosts and phantoms, mmm, they're approaching that. I've been looking at a lot of Goya prints. I mean, I've always loved Goya, but specifically looking at his demons and phantoms and crazy creatures.

Jennifer Yoffy  17:07

Sounds like what nightmares are made.

Abe Morell  17:10

Totally. In fact, one of his prints is called.... And it's a picture of him sleeping on his desk. And he's saying The sleep of reason creates monsters. And I always loved that quote. In some ways Yes, sleep of reason can create monsters. But isn't that what an artists needs, a little bit of that sleep, you know, to create something kind of unusual? So yeah, you want the monsters. Not to totally win. But you know, be around.

Jennifer Yoffy  17:46

To tap you on the shoulder sometimes.

Abe Morell  17:48

Yeah. Exactly. Like a good Korean Japanese movie.

Jennifer Yoffy  17:55

I'm switching gears a little bit. You have a passion for early technology of photography. A lot of your earlier work with a camera obscura focused on that. Do you feel that photography students today share that appreciation? Do you feel it's kind of like what you mentioned before about we can't have film, so we're obsessed with it? Or do you feel like there's less and less focus on the history of photography and the medium and you know, the people that set the stage for us?

Abe Morell  18:30

Yeah, I think it's both. I mean, I do emphasize the idea of the beginnings of photography, even pre photography, you know, the optical race to become photography. But I do lament a little bit, the fact that some students just don't know, you know, how early works, were instrumental in what we have now. So, I regret not seeing enough of that, but I think that young people want to infuse their minds with some magical marvelous stuff. So yeah, that's early photographs. Talbot in the game, you know, Niépce, it's it's very beautiful and, and in some ways, naive in a way that young people want to want to be a little bit naive about the world. Because it's, you guys specially have been fed so much information and so much data. It must be kind of frustrating and boring, you know, all rational injections, you know. So you want a little bit of magic but and I think that those early beginnings had that sense of discovery that is hard to find now and you know what I began teaching at Mass College of Art in '83 right away, I started turning my classrooms into camera obscuras just because you know, you want to, you want to be cool. You don't want be seen as some dude that just talks about F-stops and stuff. Right? So um, the idea was to just wow them. But it was very telling to me that when I did this, it was just very primitive, a classroom, closed with black plastic, and just as a hole. And as soon as Huntington Avenue started coming into the classroom, it was amazing how almost religious the room became. And these are, you know, kids who are like, Beavis and Butthead, you know, nothing will wow them but this thing did. And that sense of true magic, a true phenomenon, really was revealing to me. You know, they really think that this is interesting?! So part of my work later tried to make pictures within the camera obscura, recides, in that sense of what I saw with young people early on, it's like, this is real, this is not some convention that some Japanese inventor made, you know. So, I think young people want, like everybody else, some new source of magic, some new sorts of, you know, true stuff, not just pixels, and...

Jennifer Yoffy  21:53

Right, I wonder if it's even more extreme now, with, you know, digital, and camera phones, and everything's so instant, and you don't see the mechanics of any of it.

Abe Morell  22:04

And that's sort of a problem, you're right. The trick is not to just take a picture of just putting your unicorns flying in the sky, it just becomes so boring, you know? The idea that it used to be kind of Oh my gosh realism ohhh! But we need to get back to some deep source of reality. That could be quite wild too. But I think sticking with reality is always been a good idea. But especially now. Because you know, your brain has been so conditioned to believe that everything is sort of made up by somebody. That's not helpful.

Jennifer Yoffy  22:53

That doesn't keep the demons at bay.

Abe Morell  22:57

Not at all.

Jennifer Yoffy  22:58

So you've had a wonderful career and are still having an amazing career. What do you feel is the best decision you've made along the way?

Abe Morell  23:09

Well, number one is, Lisa, my wife and I have been married for close to 40 years now. That's number one, the idea of a commitment to someone who I love really shaped a lot of my convinced convictions. You know?

Jennifer Yoffy  23:30

How do you mean?

Abe Morell  23:31

Well, there's a, there's a sense of committing to a relationship. You know, and of course, it's not all rosy- made me think that I made my art making more secure, more of a sense of the future is set, and I'm happy. And art making became just a part of that. So and then having children. I mean, the idea of finding love in some new set of muscles, for me was key because, you know, I was probably a little too selfish. But the idea of giving something to somebody else opens your eyes to to see new new realities, and how those heart muscles you know, kind of look at things differently. So it, it forces you to be different, to change. And I think that was key for me - change. I mean, leaving Cuba was a big change. And that probably helped. But the idea of having to wake up in the morning and see a new reality and then put photography at the service of that was very big. So that idea of a relationship early on, was very important. So that will be number one. I mean, when I discovered photography in 1969, I did say to myself, I want to do this forever. And that I can honestly say that that's not changed at all. So I found the right medium to let me speak. And as I change, what I say changes, but still based on that medium, you know, that allows the world to sort of be seen. So, yeah, so I don't know if that makes sense.

Jennifer Yoffy  25:39

It makes a lot of sense. Speaking of your wife, Lisa, so for your anniversary a few years ago, instead of getting her flowers, you created 76 versions of photographs of flowers, which became this gorgeous project and book Flowers for Lisa. So I was wondering, do you ever have to give her another anniversary? Or are you kind of set for life now? Like real talk.

Abe Morell  26:06

She forgets so quickly. (laughter) I gave my heart and soul but she still wants.... No, it's interesting, because I have looked at some flowers recently and thought, Hmmm, Flowers Lisa 77? 78?

Jennifer Yoffy  26:28

How did you come up with 76? Were you... you just you got to 76 and you're like, I'm out of ideas?

Abe Morell  26:33

Exactly.... 76? And I'm like, I'm fucking done. No, one point it was like, Oh, God. Well, the reason I got to 76 is because when I had about 40, I went to Abrams Books. And the editor there said, oh, great project, we love it, I think we want to do a book. But we need more. Right away, you know, I went. Okay. So more, so I ended up with 76. But in some ways I'm not done with flowers yet. So I give her real flowers now, not just.... I hope when it comes to the gold anniversary, ohhh, that's gonna be expensive. Gold watches?!

Jennifer Yoffy  27:27

Oh, my goodness. Um, so back to your journey. What would you say was the biggest wrong turn you've made?

Abe Morell  27:41

Um, I'm not trying to be modest here, but um, I wish I had taken up digital photography a lot earlier.

Jennifer Yoffy  28:00

Did you resist it?

Abe Morell  28:01

Yeah, I did, actually. I mean, I knew what was gonna happen. But, honestly I went to see a show at MoMA of Girsky's work. You know, I like Girsky. But they were digital prints. And from far away, they looked wonderful. And as soon as you got like, three feet away, it just looked like shit. And just very disappointing. And I knew I wanted to do it, but it just didn't look right. And finally, Phase One came with some very nice backs, and I've become like a heroin addict. I meet them in some alley. So, I'm up to 150 megapixels now.

Jennifer Yoffy  29:00

Wow. When did you make that switch?

Abe Morell  29:04

2009 or 10 Okay. And part of it is because I knew that digital technology backs don't undergo reciprocity. Yeah, you know, the idea that film takes a long time to get exposed. It just got so my camera obscura pictures tended to be six to eight hours long. Yeah. Which is interesting. And I'm glad I did that, but I didn't want to hang out that long. Plus, and here's the most important part, with eight hour long exposures the image of the sky basically was the same. It was like eight hours of a blank sky because now it is defused and nothing was stopped. With digital technology now I can make an exposure in one to two minutes. So real clouds, real action of the sun, shadows all show up, which really has helped the feel of the pictures.

Jennifer Yoffy  30:25

Are you still a purist in terms of work, like the after image?

Abe Morell  30:32

...meaning...

Jennifer Yoffy  30:34

Like post processing stuff in Photoshop and...

Abe Morell  30:39

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah, no, no, no. I'm super anal about that just reality's good enough. I mean, it will brighten something. But it's what, what came in, what the reality was. So it's always, it's very straight photography. I do remember a woman in Texas. I mean, I gave a talk. And this woman said something like, you know, this seems like a lot of work. Why don't you just project to whatever the hell you want, you know onto the wall? Like, the Taj Mahal and Boston? Yeah, something like that. I said, Because its fucking boring. (laughter)

Jennifer Yoffy  31:30

Great idea though. (laughter)

Abe Morell  31:32

Where do you stop, Niagara Falls? Alabama? Because, you know, so that's the key part of it is the getting to that place, acquiring a view from a certain place, all that work. It really is part of the rigor, you know, which is, it's part of the flavor of it, you know?

Jennifer Yoffy  31:56

Yeah, it gives it more depth.

Abe Morell  31:59

But, you know, I may come up with some Taj Mahal pictures coming up, from India. (laughter)

Jennifer Yoffy  32:08

Right, right, right. (laughter) Um, so the last question I have, you talked about how you said, 73, you'll be 73 will be September, and that you feel like you're working, maybe, you know, creating more work than ever. So do you feel like whatever you had set out originally to do photographically, do you feel like you have accomplished that? And you've just kind of kept moving the bar? Or do you still have goals that you set for yourself early on that you feel like you still want to reach?

Abe Morell  32:48

Yeah, I'm not sure that I actually had goals set when I was younger. I mean, when you're 20, you know, you want to be famous. And you want girls to like you. So, I've, I think that I've accomplished that. Well done at least one girl. And this, I didn't have any specific goals, except that I wanted to continue the pleasure of making work. So in that sense I fulfilled that. I do not, I mean, when Max and I work in the studio, and one thing makes me think of another, that is just fun, because it wasn't quite written down somewhere. And what I like about it is that I think it's all connected to my DNA. You know, it's, it's not like I'm told, oh this is wrong. This is not the kind of work you should be doing. It's part of me. So in some ways, I'm allowing these other ideas to, you know, inform the new work and new energy.

Jennifer Yoffy  34:02

To be flexible and evolve.

Abe Morell  34:04

Yeah, I mean, pictures of phantoms. What the hell, you know. So, yeah, I think that's probably a good idea not to be rigid about goals, you know, because you never know. I mean, if you're if you still healthy and, you know, alive. I mean, there's no, there's no end.

Jennifer Yoffy  34:29

And sometimes if you're too fixated on one thing, you might be missing other opportunities that are coming along.

Abe Morell  34:35

Yeah. Although, you know, there are people like that, the Bechers you know, Bernd and Hilla Becher. I mean, they were totally anal and German and everything had to be sort of that kind of grid. I mean, wonderful work. I mean, just so there's different formulas, from people. So for me, being true to reality, which is huge. For me to wake up in the morning after having bad dreams, which I have often, maybe try to make a picture with some of that feeling. But just this morning, I'm going to end with this. I have a picture of my son, Brady when he was a baby and Lisa. And it's not a picture that you know, nobody quite knows that picture yet. But it's a picture made In Quincy, Massachusetts of their shadow. She's holding him and its the shadow of them. That was 1986. Well, this morning, I live upstairs from my studio as well. And there's a light coming from the bedroom, leaving a kind of a bright spot that where shadows could exist. I thought, Oh, and Brady, my son is living with us now. Maybe I set up a picture with Lisa and Brady throwing  a shadow in that hallway? Yeah, just because the continuity of whatever - could be interesting. So I'm probably going to make that today or tomorrow.

Jennifer Yoffy  36:14

 I can't wait to see how it turns out

Abe Morell  36:16

. We'll see. We'll see.

Jennifer Yoffy  36:19

Um, thank you so much. This is wonderful.

Abe Morell  36:22

A pleasure. Yeah, it's always good to see you.

Jennifer Yoffy  36:25

It's good to see you too.

Abe Morell  36:27

See your, your your worker as well.

Jennifer Yoffy  36:31

Yeah, I do some things. (laughter)

Abe Morell  36:36

It's really kind of marvelous to see the different avenues you're taking. So congratulations.

Jennifer Yoffy  36:42

Thank you so much. 

Abe Morell  36:50

By the way, are you still in Atlanta?

Jennifer Yoffy  36:52

I am.

Abe Morell  36:52

Well, I love Atlanta. But I like to hang around the club Opera.

Jennifer Yoffy  36:58

Oh, yeah? Late night?

Abe Morell  37:00

Yeah, that's where I hang out. (laughter)

Jennifer Yoffy  37:03

Yeah, I can see that.

Abe Morell  37:04

Yeah. (laughter) Do you know it?

Jennifer Yoffy  37:08

I do know it. I do. I think it's a perfect fit.

Abe Morell  37:14

Little Wayne, little... no.... Who hangs around there?  Rappers?

Jennifer Yoffy  37:21

That's right. You and the rappers?

Abe Morell  37:22

Yeah. Well, I usually bring my mink coat when I go there.

Jennifer Yoffy  37:27

Yeah, that's a good call. You'll fit right in. (laughter)

Abe Morell  37:34

Ok, let's be serious though.

Jennifer Yoffy  37:36

Okay, okay. Just a little.