Jennifer Yoffy  00:06

Welcome to Perfect Bound. I'm Jennifer Yoffy, the founder and publisher of Yoffy Press in Atlanta, Georgia. This is a podcast where we talk to artists about their journey, how they got where they are, what right and wrong turns they made along the way, and where they're heading next.

Jennifer Yoffy  00:00

Carolyn Drake works on long term photo based projects seeking to interrogate dominant historical narratives and creatively reimagine them. Her practice embraces collaboration and has in recent years melded photography with sewing, collage and sculpture. She's interested in collapsing the traditional divide between author and subject, the real in the imaginary, challenging entrenched binaries. Drake was born in California and studied media and culture and history in the early 1990s at Brown University. Following her graduation in 94, she moved to New York and worked as an interactive designer for many years, before departing to engage with the physical world through photography. She's turned several long term projects into highly acclaimed book projects, including Two Rivers, Wild Pigeon, Internat, and most recently Knit Club which was published in 2020 by TBW Books. It emerged from her collaboration with an enigmatic group of women in Mississippi, and was shortlisted for the Paris Photo Aperture Book of the Year, and 2020 Lucie Photo Book Prize. Drake now lives in California and is currently developing self reflective projects close to home. Her work has been supported by Guggenheim Fellowship, the Anamorphosis Book Prize, the Peter S. Reed Foundation, Lightwork, The Do Good Fund, the Lange-Taylor prize, Magnum Foundation, Pulitzer Center and a Fulbright Fellowship. She is a member of Magnum photos, please welcome Carolyn Drake to the podcast. I have a lot of questions, or at least some questions. And are you good to just get started?

Carolyn Drake  01:41

Sure.

Jennifer Yoffy  01:42

Okay.

Carolyn Drake  01:42

Let's try.

Jennifer Yoffy  01:43

(laughs) Let's try. They're about you. So they should be relatively easy to answer. But what I was finding when I was doing research, I mean, a lot of the photographer's that I look at talk to, it seems like they've known from birth that they wanted to be a photographer, or they just kind of come out of the womb with a camera saying this is it and you weren't like that. And so you, you studied media and culture and history at Brown, and then you lived and worked in New York, and before you change course, and went to grad school for photography. So my question is, how, if at all, do you think having a wider experience informs the way that you approach photography?

Carolyn Drake  02:32

Um, I think my wider, I mean, in part, like academically, not like as an undergraduate in college, not being a major in photography just made me... Um, it gave me this whole background and reading texts and like, critical thinking that I'm not sure. I mean, I actually don't know what most like MFA or undergraduate programs and photography as art are like, but I think the kind of critical thinking and analysis that I did in college is really, really defines who I am still, for better or worse. I mean, sometimes it freezes me up, probably, I ask a lot of questions of myself, but I don't think I would let go of that. And, I mean, in terms of the real life experience, you know, a lot of my real life experience has actually come from being a photographer. But I also I maybe it's also because I had a big career change when I was like, 30, you know, so I was, I had a whole kind of developing career before I got into photography. And so I always have in the back of my head, it is possible to change and do new things. And so I think that knowledge, when I went within my photography career, I want to make a change or try something new, I think, knowing that it's possible, from my previous experience, makes me much more willing to take those risks.

Jennifer Yoffy  04:38

And why did you make that change from a different career to photography? Like, what was it was it's the kind of thing that was kind of nagging at you like, oh, if I could do anything, I would do this. And then one day, you're like, I'm just gonna do that  or... Yeah, I always loved photography, but it's like, I just never thought, oh, that could be my life. It just never occurred to me. And like, when I was in junior high school, I took this photo class and my math teacher made a darkroom in the basement of the school and, and a few of us just did this extracurricular thing. And I was like, I fell in love with it. But then when I left his class, it stopped because I didn't, it just didn't seem like a career path. And then I got, I got interested in documentary films, I think in college, and then, so that seemed like, a possible thing that I could follow through with after... Right, you had an outlet.

Carolyn Drake  05:54

Yeah. But like, eventually, I came back to photography, because I just felt like that was the medium that gave me independence more than in film, you know, I was just imagining all these crews, the big team you have to work with and all these people, you have to help produce your work and the cost of film. And so I really just... and, because I was so used to working in my job with other people and teams and group decision making, and I just felt like I just wanted to do something on my own and to get out in the world on my own rather than like going through all these bureaucratic hurdles to get there.

Jennifer Yoffy  06:43

Right. Yeah, you can just kind of venture out with a camera and see what happens.

Carolyn Drake  06:48

Yeah. I guess that's how I just, I actually started taking pictures in my neighborhood in Williamsburg, in the very beginning, of my neighbors, and one of them hired me to do a photoshoot of their dance school. And I made all these portraits, I learned how to use lights, and I like made these portraits of these girls and their dance costumes. That was like the first job I ever had.

Jennifer Yoffy  07:20

Yeah, I think I can see the throughline in your work from that. (both laugh) So after living and working on long term projects in Central Asia for nearly a decade, you move back to the US and have focused on making work here. What prompted that decision to relocate? And how, if at all, has your approach to image making changed as a result of trying to photograph? I mean, it's an interesting kind of issue where you're, you've been away for so long, and you're coming, you know, and you're used to photographing in another country in another culture and now you're back photographing in your own country and culture, but it probably feels less like your own after having been gone for so long. So can you talk about kind of that, that interplay?

Carolyn Drake

Yeah, I mean, the nice thing about having it feel less like my own place after being gone so long, is that it just, I had fresh eyes. So I was just really curious, you know? The United States was this foreign place to me and, but also, I wanted all these projects that I had been working on in Central Asia, they were these long term projects. So I was kind of approaching them in a way that was somewhat consistent throughout the time of working on them and finishing those projects put me in a position where I was, I could liberate myself to like, try a new visual strategy. And so I was really excited, because I just, you know, I felt I wanted to make work that was more participatory. And... The people in it would be participating? Yeah, I would collaborate with people in a way and work with people on creating images rather than this street photography - fly on the wall approach that I think I had been taking for a long time. I wanted to mix it up and make pictures that are more consciously constructed and created. I wanted it to work on creating something rather than waiting for the picture to be given to me. 

Jennifer Yoffy

Mm hmm. That makes sense. Well, but you were doing work, like with the quilting and also where the people you were photographing, were manipulating or, you know, interacting with the photos after? And do you think that evolved into Okay, now I want them to participate while the photo is being created?

Carolyn Drake

Yeah, um, exactly. I mean, yeah, you nailed it. Like, with my last project in Central Asia, Wild Pigeon, I had, I had brought my photos and kind of let go of control of like the authorship of them and invited them to be re-authored by the people I had photographed. And that was like this letting go of control was interesting. And I wanted to play more with that because I think there's some beauty. And photography is a lot about control. So I wanted to kind of work with that assumption that we have that that's all photography, like, that's...

Jennifer Yoffy

Right that we make these pictures and they’re ours, as opposed to more of a shared authorship. I'm really fascinated just with the idea of collaboration in general. And it's part of why I love making photo books and feeling like, you know, two different people or four different people, you know, have ideas, and that's kind of greater than just the one. And so I love that interplay and working with that, which is a huge part of why I'm drawn to your work. And so Knit Club was that next iteration for you, you talked about, you know, that you with these women, they brought suggestions of places or scenes or props, that it really felt more communal, in certain ways. So did that get to that next level for you? Or is there a level past that that you want to keep pushing?

Carolyn Drake  12:19

Um, well, what I did after Knit Club was, I think my work, in addition to becoming more like collaborative and participatory has become more turning inward, like, from Central Asia. Actually, I did some work in Ukraine, in between coming back here, and that's where I started playing with the whole idea of participating with other people, which led to Knit Club, I think, but, I think moving to Ukraine, and then to the Knit Club. And then I've also been making work at home in in California, where I live, and during COVID I started shooting my backyard, like things I created in my backyard...

Jennifer Yoffy  13:16

Thats why I didn't feel that bad when I asked if you could do it early, because I was like, Oh, she's probably been up since before the sun, you know, creating some sculpture in her backyard to photograph. Well, I've slowed down on that, because I feel like I need... Because you got tired? (both laugh)

Carolyn Drake  13:33

Yeah, tired, tired of being in my house. But yeah, there's also been this shift inward. And so I've actually, since then started directly photographing myself, like with the backyard, I was photographing... I mean, I was reflected in the images, because they're in my space. And they're, I think they're an expression of (long pause) I think, as my old work might have been more descriptive of wat I see, it's becoming more a reflection of my inner impulses. And some of the work in the backyard was kind of reflecting that and then I started trying to play with self portraiture, and I'm not sure where that's going to go. But that's been a really interesting thing to try. Not only because it's like a technical problem to figure out, but, you know, there's a difference, there's something you learn when you see yourself about what it's like for other people to be seen by you.

Jennifer Yoffy  14:52

When you were in a couple of the photos in Knit Club, and then also this might be going like way deeper than it is actual but I feel like in two things, like one is, I think a lot of people are looking inward during COVID. You know, there's a lot of isolation, there's a lot of self reflection, a lot of people making sourdough bread, but if you, you know, I've bought a gazillion books all, you know, trying to figure myself out better. You know, so I think that there's an impulse there during this time, but also, it seems like with Knit Club, and it was sort of this unexpected community that you fell into with these women and some of them were mothers, which wasn't an experience you have, but then you, you know, were able to kind of tap into these different parts of yourself that you weren't expecting. And so maybe it's like the confluence of that plus the COVID. And here we are.

Carolyn Drake  15:57

Yeah, I think there's something terrifying and insecure about, like, letting things happen. And, you know, finding out what you're doing partly by experiencing life, and it takes time, sometimes it takes time for that to come together, because you can't determine like, what it's going to be and when it's going to happen. But that's, I think, something that has been part of my life, even though I am now constructing pictures more, there's still a level of like, spontaneity that I really appreciate. And I tried to like, let myself follow. And, yeah, that's all I have to say. Just one small point there.

Jennifer Yoffy  16:57

No, I I agree. Um, I want to talk about photo books you mentioned Wild Pigeon and Two Rivers. And then do you say it Internat or Internet?  Well, I say internet but in Russian you say internat, I think. You self published those three, Two Rivers Wild Pigeon, and Internat. And then you publish Knit Club with TBW Books, Paul Schiek is one of... I just adore him. I want to be him when I grow up. So why did you decide to work with a publisher for Knit Club after having really, three really successful sold out books that you had published on your own? And how did you pick? You know, how did you choose Paul? How did you guys connect?

Carolyn Drake  17:52

Um, well, first of all, Paul lives in a in the Bay Area where I live, so I knew about him, and my friend, Mimi Plum, made a book with him and I kind of watched her process. Like, over time, I kind of followed what happened with the book that she was trying to make. And I really liked, how it came together. And I think actually, Knit Club, like the structure of it is, I think her book was a model for what I ended up doing. But I wanted to make a book that was less about..., I wanted to just experiment with making a book that was less about design, and more about just like really classical and straightforward. Because all my other books have been very, I mean, in varying levels of like, embracing full on design elements that become as important as the photographs. And in this one, because the photographs are very odd and maybe you need to do a double take to look at them again.

Jennifer Yoffy  19:17

Right, they kind of need to breathe, yeah, I get that for sure.

Carolyn Drake  19:24

And so I just thought I want to try working with Paul and the process has been.... I've really enjoyed working on the book with him and living close, like we've become friends through the process. And it was very collaborative. And I mean, I think the experience I mean, obviously, I'm sure you experienced sometimes when collaborating with artists on books, there's tension sometimes, (laughs) like because...

Jennifer Yoffy  19:59

Yes, that has happened. (laughs)

Carolyn Drake  20:00

So there's that, but we hash it out, and we both are willing to hash it out. So it's been an experience that I really like and I'm happy about in the end. And I just, I mean, another thing I wanted to mention about collaboration is I also had started working on this project that got slowed down during COVID, but this project is with my partner, Andres. He's also a photographer and an artist and so that kind of collaboration is different than a collaboration with the subject.

Jennifer Yoffy  20:49

Yeah, yes, yes, yes. 

Carolyn Drake  20:51

You're playing different roles. But with him, it's like, a battle. Like, we're working side by side. And we it's a total battle. And all these power questions, because we're making these pictures side by side of the same thing and....

Jennifer Yoffy  21:09

Do you two have a similar style?

Carolyn Drake

Well, we're using a similar style for the subject. So we're using the same camera, and lighting and lens, mostly. So the pictures look the same. And it ends up being this battle about who's... because one person gets in the position where they're making good pictures, and the other person's on the other side, feeling really frustrated. And then it shifts back and forth. Yeah, I think this is a very brave project to do with your partner.

Carolyn Drake  21:55

It's probably good that we had a year off.

Jennifer Yoffy  21:58

Right? (laughs) Yeah, it really feels like survivor. (both laugh) Will you also say, you're also part of the Magnum Live Lab in Atlanta's High Museum, and I'm in Atlanta. And then it got put on hold due to COVID. And I saw a video where you showed your work-in-progress quilt that you were able to work on back home from your studio. And the front had James Baldwin's article about the Atlanta child murders. And, and then over these advertised it was originally published in Playboy, so I'm telling you what you already know. But, so over the advertising images promoting this ideal white masculinity, and then the back had more advertising images. And in the video, you said you expected that it would continue to evolve? And so I'm just curious, like, has the work continued to evolve? Or do you kind of put it to the side until you can come back and continue in Atlanta? Um, it's funny, because I had put that in the drawer for a while, but I just brought out James Baldwin's book yesterday. And I was reading it again, and what I thought was, Man, this text is very difficult.  As in, like, difficult subject matter, or difficult, dense?  Both. It's dense, and his brain is very deep, and he just goes on tangents and, and expresses himself, and it's like, all these deep ideas, but it's also his emotions. And I, what I wanted to do in order to like develop that project further is pull imagery from what he talks about. Like he talks about structural racism in America. And and he talks about cultural texts that have perpetuated structural racism, so like Birth of a Nation and Gone with the Wind and these films and, and other aspects of, visual culture that have, over time perpetuated the racism that's slavery is founded on. So I felt like this is a really important thing to like, look at in terms of Atlanta's Atlanta and tried to represent it and not that my role is going to be to represent Atlanta but to respond to it, I guess. And so I wanted to work with some of the visual references that he writes about and see if I can kind of do some collage like quilting. Um, but right now I think I really want to just go out, get out of my studio and that long, drawn out process of quilting, and just work with other people outside and with the camera. And actually, my return to Atlanta might be pushed back because of COVID. And some of the people who are participating in the Live Lab might not be vaccinated before September, when we were going to do it. So we're talking about that right now. But um, you know, usually when I go make work in a place, I'm in the place, experiencing it and living life for a while before I figure out what I'm what kind of work I'm going to make there. So.... Right, this is a different format for sure.

Carolyn Drake  26:20

Yeah, totally different.

Jennifer Yoffy  26:22

What do you feel just, you know, looking back through what you've done, what was the best decision you made, or maybe, you know, if not the best, like some really fortuitous turning point, or, you know, something that pointed you in a direction that you're really thankful for? The best decision I made was probably leaving New York. I mean, I don't want to say the grad school experience I had in Ohio was ideal. Like, I might have chosen a different place, but it I think leaving New York somehow freed me to just be myself, rather than play the New York game. And I needed to do that in order to kind of like move forward with whatever creative life I wanted to build. But that decision was also like, choosing photography. So leaving was like, I left...,New York is like a life. Like, I have New York and then I have photography. So that was like the biggest decision and probably the best. Are there any things that you can think of that were that maybe felt like a wrong turn at the time whether you learned, you know, ultimately, these things you know, everything happens for a reason but anything that kind of in the moment you were like this this wasn't the right move? Maybe it's gonna be the the photo battle with your partner? (both laugh)

Carolyn Drake  28:14

That one hasn't panned out yet, so I can't give you the final answer. (both laugh) But, um, there are times when I wonder if doing this project is gonna cause the end of the relationship (laughs) but...um, you know, there's a lot of mistakes I've made. I don't know which one is the worst, but um, and I think especially on a podcast where I'm trying to, I don't want to like self-deprecate too much. I think I'd like to see the mistakes as learning, like part of the learning process, and part of the success of like, making art is is making mistakes, and the mistakes turn into other things. So for example, like I started quilting, and I'm glad I'm doing those quilts. I don't know what their future is, but if I hadn't started making those, this project that I've been doing over the last year in my backyard wouldn't have happened because I used a lot of the materials and my my comfort that I had developed with like creating was brought into this photo project in my backyard. So if the quilts, you know, I don't know how far my quilts are gonna evolve, but this backyard project came out of it. So I like to see various decisions as just part of the path rather than the word failure and success is so loaded, it's so tied up in, like our American, like, greedy capitalism.

Jennifer Yoffy  30:22

Totally. What would you say is your barometer, for lack of a better word, success in photography, like just you personally? Do you feel like, you know what needs to happen or has it already happened? I feel like you're in a good place with it, you know, like you're doing what you need to be doing, you're accomplishing whatever it is that you've set out to do.

Carolyn Drake  30:51

I think, um, if I could ensure I would always have funding to keep putting in the time to let my works evolve and develop independently, that would be the ideal place to be. To have enough funding that I can do what I want. And, and assuming that if I keep doing what I want, I'll have chances to share that work broadly in the world. I mean, I like to be able to share my work, and not just keep it hidden. So those are two things.

Jennifer Yoffy  31:30

Those are two really great things. And I hope that for you as well for all of us. Thank you for listening to the Perfect Bound podcast. If you'd like to hear any past episodes, you can find them at the Yoffy Press website. Yoffy Press dot com slash podcasts. You can also find this on any other podcast streaming platform that you might use, like Spotify or Apple podcasts. If you feel like rating it with lots of positive stars, I would really appreciate that, too. And I'm looking forward to seeing you next time. Thank you. When we were talking about Paul Sheik, I was like, okay, it's 50/50 whether she's gonna say that she wanted to work with him because he's so talented, and he makes great books or because he has amazing hair.

Carolyn Drake  32:34

(laughs) You like is hair?!

Jennifer Yoffy  32:37

His hair is amazing. His wife is a hairstylist or whatever. So I mean, that helps, I think, you know, having it in home, but yes, he has amazing hair.

Carolyn Drake  32:47

I can tell you something, um, he and his wife collect work about hair.

Jennifer Yoffy  32:53

No!?!

Carolyn Drake  32:54

And I've been... look at my hair. (both laugh) So I've been talking to him a lot over the last year about hair. And I mean, that sounds weird, but.... (both laugh) But, um, well.... I've been talking to him about how I want his wife to cut my hair. And, and then eventually....

Jennifer Yoffy  33:04

I feel like it would be a transformation. You know, I can just like imagine if she cut my hair, I would just come out looking like a supermodel. I don't know.

Carolyn Drake  33:27

Well, you should. You should do it.

Jennifer Yoffy  33:29

Yeah, yeah,

Carolyn Drake  33:30

You must be vaccinated.

Jennifer Yoffy  33:32

I am. I am. I'm ready for a haircut in California.

Carolyn Drake  33:36

Take the risk.

Jennifer Yoffy  33:38

So you want her to cut your hair?

Carolyn Drake  33:40

I do. Especially now that I cut my own hair for the camera. It looks pretty nasty. So I sent a picture to Paul and he thought it looked punk. I don't know if used the word punk, but I think that's what he meant. Like a shag head. (laughs)

Jennifer Yoffy  33:57

We can get them together.

Carolyn Drake  33:58

Yeah, let's do it. I'm serious.

Jennifer Yoffy  34:01

Yeah, I can't do short because my face is too round. So you're gonna have to..., well, we don't have to have matching haircuts. Yeah, that doesn't make sense. We can just do it at the same time.

Carolyn Drake  34:11

Right, right, right.

Jennifer Yoffy  34:12

And then we'll get to really have a sense of how good her vision is, you know, like what she sees for me versus what she sees for you.

Carolyn Drake  34:19

Yeah, yeah.