Jennifer Yoffy  00:06

Welcome to Perfect Bound. I'm Jennifer Yoffy, the founder and publisher of Yoffy press in Atlanta, Georgia. This is a podcast where we talk to artists about their journey, how they got where they are, what right and wrong turns they made along the way and where they're heading next. Gail Albert Halaban is an American artist born in Washington, DC and living in New York. She attended the Rhode Island School of Design Brown University, and she received her MFA in photography from Yale University. Her work has been widely published, including three monographs of her Out My Window series, which explores what people see through their neighbors' windows in the cities of the world. Her work has been exhibited extensively, and she is represented by Edwin Houck Gallery in New York City, Jackson Fine Art in Atlanta, and Weinstein Hammonds in Minneapolis. Please welcome Gail Albert Halaban to the podcast. When I was reading about you and Out My Window to prepare for the interview, I kept reading that for you, the work is about building community. And I've admired your work for years. But I hadn't ever thought about the images in that way since the camera's perspective is of a voyeur almost. So can you talk more about the community building aspect of the project?

Gail Albert Halaban  01:39

So I love to look into people's windows, it's my favorite thing to do. And when I walk my dog at night, I'm always looking up at the windows. But I always felt like photography is very voyeuristic. And that was one thing that bothered me about photography, I actually gave it up for like, a year, because I was like, this is creepy. Like, I'm taking pictures of other people. And there's the Internet, and they'll go everywhere. And that's fine. Really, it didn't feel good to me. So I kind of did some soul searching to try to figure out how photography could be friendlier. And so I still love looking through windows, but I asked the neighbors who see into the neighbor's windows to go ask permission of the neighbors before I photograph. And then we set up the time and we stage the photograph. So everybody's talking everybody needs. It's not just me with a camera taking a picture into somebody's window, but it's about connecting the neighbors. And a lot of relationships have formed through that connection. I'm my assistant is actually engaged to a woman that that we met because we saw her through the window. Part of the project. So there there are real connections, sometimes they're there. They're simpler, like one neighbor now asks another for a cup of coffee.

Jennifer Yoffy  02:57

Right.

Gail Albert Halaban  02:58

Every once in a while, but some sometimes they're really really intimate connections like with Filippo and Paulina,

Jennifer Yoffy  03:05

Is it often that they will have already noticed that neighbor or you know, but just hadn't reached out? Is it? Because it's Yeah, that in order for the photo to work, it's got to be like the direct across

Gail Albert Halaban  03:19

Slightly above looking down also is a perspective. But yes, I the way I find people to participate in the project is I asked that question, do you see your neighbors? Are you curious? To meet them? Will you go ask permission? So everybody notices their neighbors, it's just if you live in a city, that's just a way we feel a sense of community and connection, if even if we haven't met them. The city can be lonely, but if you see your neighbors across the way, you know, you're not alone. So yeah, definitely people have noticed their neighbors and most people are pretty excited about the idea of having an excuse to go meet them.

Jennifer Yoffy  04:01

Really. What percentage of the people that you reach out to say like, no, why not? You know, can't do it too awkward.

Gail Albert Halaban  04:12

It's actually kind of amazing. The batting average is pretty great. I'd say 99% of the people I've asked have said yes. I mean, I can kind of count the number of nos. And sometimes I don't get a response. Like I'll leave a note and I'll try to figure out who the neighbors are. And I don't get a response. But most people if I actually asked them, like somehow figure out who the neighbors are. They say yes, in some countries, it's easier than others. Like in Paris at first people were a little apprehensive about the idea. And it took a little coaxing to encourage people to participate. In Italy, particularly in Rome, everyone was so excited. They're like, sure, we'll go have them over for a glass of wine. So there was definitely the cultural differences in different places in Buenos Aires, people were willing to participate. But they never wanted their kids in the picture, which is surprising to me. Because my pictures are often families, I tend to photograph people I connect with and I feel like reflected in the, in the window, I see I reflect myself. And so that was interesting in Buenos Aires. And it's simple. The neighbors weren't willing to ask without me being there. And I had to be the one to do the actual asking. So in every place is different. But pretty much everybody said, Yes, the only know I can really think of is in New York City. I asked somebody I went to Rhode Island School of Design with if I could photograph into her window. And she said, though, that it was almost like, we had too much in common and it felt too vulnerable to reveal even more, but strangers seem pretty willing to participate.

Jennifer Yoffy  06:08

So generally, you're not seeing a person's window and saying I want to photograph into that - you know the person?

Gail Albert Halaban  06:19

Yeah, so the way it usually works is I know the side that I'm photographing from, and I asked them to go ask the neighbor that they see. So I'm in every city, I've done this in except New York, or I live, I've had a person who lives in that city kind of act as my ambassador. And they'll pick 20 to 30 people who see into their neighbor's windows, we ask them all to go ask permission. And then I come to the city and I photograph. So I don't actually even see the view before I get there to photograph.

Jennifer Yoffy  06:52

Are you ever like, "this is ugly"?

Gail Albert Halaban  06:55

You know, not really, because maybe the architecture is not that interesting, or the perspective isn't that interesting. But usually, if you're photographing the life, the lives are always interesting. So what's happening in the window is always something I connect with, you can always find in a portrait, I feel like those are the portraits, and there's always something fun or you can always make a great portrait of a person. Yeah, sometimes the architecture is better than others, or the lights better, but I've never really had one where I'm like, Oh, this is terrible. I can't do it.

Jennifer Yoffy  07:31

What about like a window that's too reflective to get a good shot into? Does that ever happen?

Gail Albert Halaban  07:40

If you look at my New York book, there are definitely some were those were all shot on film. So I had no idea what I was doing. There were definitely reflections and never too much. One of my favorite photographers is Saul, Leiter, and he embraces reflection. So I feel like that's part of it. I mean, I do feel like the project is photographic in that I embrace the the success and the failure of the medium like, photography isn't the same as seeing and sometimes the technology changes how you see. And I like that about it. So they're not all perfect, perfect. But I think that's makes it more interesting.

Jennifer Yoffy  08:31

And I didn't realize that you also work with photographers and other cities to create the images. How often does that happen?

Gail Albert Halaban  08:42

So I started a series called Out My Window Global where I work with people in other cities and have them connect the camera to their computer, and I direct the shoot remotely. I started the series when my son was three or four, and I was supposed to go to Amsterdam and photograph and I couldn't go because he was in the hospital. But I had all these shoots set up. So I decided to still do them from the hospital room. And I really loved that method of working. Um, but as soon as he was better, and he's totally fine now. I was like, there's just no way I'm going to do this, I want to go to Italy, I want to take a chance and go see the world. And so I put that project on pause. But then during the pandemic, it was the perfect way to work again and I felt so stuck at home. It was such a great way to continue to see the world and it really took off in Russia during the pandemic, really not a place I've ever been. But I managed to do probably about 10 of them in Russia and all over Russia. And one of the one of the photographers who was helping me it was like negative 32 degrees Fahrenheit and he was had the window open so he could see better to a neighbor. And it was such a great opportunity to do something that there's no way I would ever do in real life, I'm not going to go shoot a negative 32 degrees in one picture. So I can kind of go places that would be too complicated to actually get in real life.

Jennifer Yoffy  10:19

And how are you getting those photographers? Are they reaching out to you. They hear about the global project and are contacting you?

Gail Albert Halaban  10:28

So far, yes. And if you have any advice, I'd love to spread the word further. And that's the hardest part is really finding people who are willing to do it. I've had about 30 people reach out to me all over the world to do it. And I'd like it to be a book. So I'm hoping to get more. The issue is I need people with some technical expertise, because I want the pictures to look as good as my pictures. So it's complicated, they're not that easy to take in I, I'd always thought the project was really simple and really easy. But then I've learned during the pandemic, that there's a lot more to it than I realized.

Jennifer Yoffy  11:07

And then are you happy with how those images are coming out?

Gail Albert Halaban  11:11

Um, so the batting average for that is definitely lower. But some of them are great, really terrific. I work with a photographer in Boston. And she just, we really, we spent a couple hours in advance, really explaining her how to do it. And she scouted with me, and we did a live and we lit it perfectly, and the weather was great. So sometimes they're absolutely stunning. And sometimes they're less, less good. But there's a lot less risk for me like I'm not paying for a plane ticket and taking two or three weeks off my life to do it. If it takes an hour or so I might as well try.

Jennifer Yoffy  11:52

Yeah, yeah. And did you feel like so during COVID? How did that affect your relationship to the work? I mean, so you're talking about like it affected the work, and that you couldn't be in people's homes photographing. And so you went back to this global idea. But how do you feel the community aspect of it? Do you feel like it became more important in that way? To do these collaborations?

Gail Albert Halaban  12:23

Yeah, I mean, the, the, the work that I do in person, I think definitely has taken off in a way of popularity more than it had before. Because I think when we're all stuck at home, and all we can see is our neighbors, and we can't actually go meet them, that window becomes a really important place for relationships. And so I think during the pandemic, my the work I've been doing in person has had more significance. And I think the global work also had more significance during the pandemic, because before when I explained to the project to people that were confused, like, Well, why don't you just come here and take the picture yourself. And now people get it, they're stuck at home, they're wanting to do something creative. They like the idea of collaborating, they can't participate in in person activity. So it's almost like photo lesson collaboration all in one. And it's an event, we always have a really good time.

Jennifer Yoffy  13:23

Mm hmm. That is fun. And so this is a 15 year long project at this point, right?

Gail Albert Halaban  13:29

So my daughter is 17. And the project started on her first birthday when my neighbors across the way sent us balloons and flowers, wishing her a happy birthday, because they saw we were having a party but we'd never met them. But they just had been watching us through the window for the year.

Jennifer Yoffy  13:50

That's awesome. And then so do you see an ending? Or are you still like getting new things, and, you know, it's still filling you, this work?

Gail Albert Halaban  14:01

So I am doing other projects at the same time. But I don't see an ending. I did the project first in New York. And when that was over, I thought it was done. And the project was completely over. And that was like 12 years ago. Um, but then when Lamond invited me to Paris to do the Paris work, I realized that every place is completely different. And every culture changes the way the work looks and what it's about and the relationships. I've added a storytelling aspect to it where people tell me the stories of what they see of their neighbors and so that part's evolved a lot.

Jennifer Yoffy  14:43

Um, is that written? Are you recording audio?

Gail Albert Halaban  14:46

It is recorded audio, and I really love that part. And then like, last week, I photographed into my own apartment building, and I've only done that once in the 17 years, 16 years of the project. And the picture is completely different than I had done it originally. So I feel like as I change, the pictures change, and so the idea is the same, like I'm shooting through a window, but the window is just the frame. And what's happening in the windows is what the pictures are about. And so those have changed a lot over the years.

Jennifer Yoffy  15:24

That's great. So what other projects are you working on? Or are you excited about? And do they have like a through line to this work? Or would you say they're completely different?

Gail Albert Halaban  15:39

So I think all my work is about community and connection. And that's the through line, I think it I, a lot of my series look completely different. But I think they're all related. I started a series about 20 years ago called This Stage of Motherhood, where I photograph women and the sort of tribes they build as mothers and what what they are sent what they, their sense of identity within the role of motherhood is. And I've been shooting that a lot, actually, as the world is opening up again, and people are spending more time with their friends, it's been a great time to revisit that work. And then I have a completely different series, about third places, places outside the home and office that build community. So it's very similar to the Out My Window work, I'm shooting from the street into windows, of places. But it's a little hard to describe at this point, because it's brand new work. But as the cities, cities are coming alive again, I'm really sort of seeing what what did we give up in the past year? And where how do we rebuild that? I'm pretty excited about the work.

Jennifer Yoffy  16:58

Yeah, that sounds really interesting. Because the settings could be so different than the interior of people's homes.

Gail Albert Halaban  17:08

Yeah, I think, um, space, just like in the Out My Window work, sets a stage for drama narrative. And so my stages look very different right now. So that the dramas that are unfolding are very different too.

Jennifer Yoffy  17:21

The focus of the podcast is the journey, the artist's journey. And so given that you this is a very long term project, and you've obviously been working in photography for years, what would you say is the best decision you'd made related to your career and your photography?

Gail Albert Halaban  17:45

Um, I think the best decision I've made is I'm just really stubborn, and I do whatever I want, even if people tell me that I shouldn't do it. Like, I think after Out My Window came out the first book, and now I've had three in the series. Some people told me like, you should do something else, you're not taking risks, like, like, like, try something totally different. I'm like, no, this is what I really want to do. And there's a lot of satisfaction for sticking with what you really love. And I think the work has been popular for a long time, but it became much more popular during the pandemic. So I feel like finally, like, Oh, yeah, I spent forever doing this. And I'm really gonna keep doing the same thing. But that slow progression, that slow growth that the time has given me, I feel like the work has so much more meaning because of that. So I think just sticking with what I really love, even if other people tell me to move on, yeah.

Jennifer Yoffy  18:44

And like letting it evolve at your pace, as opposed to, you know, pushing just for the sake of making a big shift or, you know, trying to incorporate the feedback that other people are giving you. I think that's a really hard thing for artists. Because it's, you know, what do you what do you take on board and what do you stick to your guns about? Yeah, exactly. It's a that's a hard balancing act for sure. Did you? Did you feel like you got that push or advice from the galleries that you work with too? Or was it more outside influences?  The galleries are probably like, this sells great - keep doing it.

Gail Albert Halaban  19:36

Yeah, I think more outside influences. Definitely. Well, my you're in Atlanta, right? Atlanta gallery, Jackson Fine Arts cannot be more supportive of whatever I do. They're, they're my cheerleaders, and I love them for that.

Jennifer Yoffy  19:48

Yeah, they're wonderful. Can you talk about a wrong turn you made or a mistake and what you feel like you learn from it?

Gail Albert Halaban  19:59

Um, so I was pre-med in college, which I loved. And I don't feel like that was a mistake. But I didn't realize that photography could be a career and I had kind of figured thought I had to find an actual job. And then I could be a photographer on the side. And I feel like that came out of a place of fear, like photography is, there's so many applications for it. And there's definitely, I think, many ways to find a career in it. So I feel like, I wish I had a bit scared at the time when I was 20 years old and tried to figure out what to do with my life. But so I don't think it's a wrong term because I really loved studying science and biology. And I had a great college experience that was a liberal arts experience. But I think I was fearful to become an art. So it's a scary profession.

Jennifer Yoffy  20:54

Yeah, it is. And I definitely, I admire parents that are super encouraging of their kids going into these scary professions. My I mean, I never asked my parents if I could be an artist and they said, no, but I think that most people that I know, you know that you get pressure to study something practical. And so,

Gail Albert Halaban  21:19

I definitely have to thank my parents for that. Like the night before, I was supposed to take the MCAT I remember my father saying to me, are you sure this is what you want to do? Or art school and I think you might be the only father who has said that to their child. And they've been very supportive. I had a darkroom my whole childhood, I don't think I would have been a photographer without them. So admire, my kids are gonna rebel and be like doctors and lawyers.

Jennifer Yoffy  21:50

Right? What do you feel is your barometer for success in photography? And do you feel like you're there is there still a lot more that you feel that you need to do to feel satisfied with what you've accomplished?

Gail Albert Halaban  22:06

And I feel like my life is filled with amazing experiences, like people invite me to their homes and share their homes with me all over the world. So to me, that is the best success. I feel like I have everything I want, I would like more people to see the work and participate in the work and that, like if it keeps growing, that's fantastic. But I think just the fact that I've people have opened their homes to me, I mean, I worked in Italy with an art consultant, Francesca mulgara. And we met in Rome and over coffee, and she's like, I like your project, I'll help and she introduced me to 15 people to participate in the project. So meeting people like that, and having them share their friendships and relationships, to me is the perfect career. I love it.

Jennifer Yoffy  23:01

That's wonderful. I mean, I mean, what a satisfying thing to be able to kind of win on both sides, it feels like you know, to build that connection through your art is really powerful. Let's talk about the books for a second. Have you always conceptualized kind of each place as its own sort of chapter and then therefore its own book? Or is that just sort of how it's worked out?

Gail Albert Halaban  23:29

And I love having each each book be its own city, because there's so much variety within the city. And I feel like we all have like an image of New York or an image of Paris in our head. But when you see a whole book, you kind of get to live the experience of what it's like to live in the city and stand where people who live there stand and see what they see. So I'd like that variety within a book. Like, I don't want just one picture for me to city in a book. But I do want to do a global one that covers that every continent, it would be my dream. So I like doing it both ways.

Jennifer Yoffy  24:09

Where else do you need to go? Have you done anything in Africa or South America?

Gail Albert Halaban  24:15

So I've done remote ones in Africa and South America and Asia, but I have I've been to Buenos Aires, but I haven't been to Africa and I haven't been to Asia. So Japan is my dream.

Jennifer Yoffy  24:28

Wow. That would be amazing. And you've not done any remote in Japan?

Gail Albert Halaban  24:34

I've done remotes in both Africa and Asia. I've done Tokyo, South Korea, a bunch in Africa all over, but I haven't gone yet. And do you feel like you need to go to like, make it real? I do feel like I mean you asked what successes I do feel like it's so much more fun for me when I get to go and actually meet the people and the drama that happens in the window becomes much more developed and complicated. Because I'm there interacting with people, I'm participating, there's much more back and forth. So I think the pictures will be better if I can go. But in the meantime, if anybody is anywhere in the world and wants to participate, that's great, too.

Jennifer Yoffy  25:18

Yeah, so they should just reach out to you directly?

Gail Albert Halaban  25:21

I have a website Out My Window Global, which is just for that project.

Jennifer Yoffy  25:26

Awesome. This has been so great. I love the global aspect of it. And I think it's just it's a fun way to build community within, like, with photographers to not just the community, you're building, like between neighbors, but kind of in the photographic community that people could participate and, and help you with this project.

Gail Albert Halaban  25:51

Yeah, that's been really the coolest part of the global project when really good photographers in different parts of the world are willing to help me. I mean, it's just such a generous act, that they don't take it as their own work, but they are willing to collaborate online. Though I do credit everybody who collaborates. I don't. I don't just name that work as mine, but it is a collaboration. And I think that's one thing. I guess there is one thing I want to add, which is like I think photography is a really collaborative medium. And I think it's often historically been used as more of an aggressive tool, and I think it can be used as a much more collaborative tool.

Jennifer Yoffy  26:33

Yeah, that's a great point. I love I mean, collaboration is a big thing that I'm interested in, and that I talk about, so it's definitely a piece of your work that resonates with me, and I'm sure, everyone listening.  Thank you for listening to the Perfect Bound podcast. I'm Jennifer Yoffy. You can listen to previous episodes by going on to the Yoffy Press website. You can also find this podcast on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or any other podcast streaming platform. And if you love it, which I hope you do, please go on to one of those places and give it all the stars. Thank you so much again, and I'll see you next time. I read that your son is named Jonah. And my son is named Jonah.

Gail Albert Halaban  27:28

Oh, really? It's such a good - It's such a good name. How old is your Jonah?

Jennifer Yoffy  27:34

He is about to be 17.

Gail Albert Halaban  27:37

I have a 17 year old also but that's not Jonah. Jonah's 12.

Jennifer Yoffy  27:44

Do people call him Noah a lot?

Gail Albert Halaban  27:48

It's so funny. Often that happens. But I have a friend who one son is Noah and the others Jonah. So I know they are distinct to some people.

Jennifer Yoffy  27:57

Right? Yeah, no, I think it's super weird.