Jennifer Yoffy  00:06
Welcome to Perfect Bound. I'm Jennifer Yoffy, the founder and publisher of Yoffy press in Atlanta, Georgia. This is a podcast where we talk to artists about their journey, how they got where they are, what right and wrong turns they made along the way, and where they're heading next. I am super excited to welcome artist and publisher Kris Graves to the podcast today.

Kris is based in London and New York. He received his BFA in Visual Arts from SUNY Purchase College and has been published and exhibited globally. Kris Graves creates artwork that deals with societal problems and aims to use art as a means to inform people about cultural issues. He also works to elevate the representation of people of color in the fine art canon and to create opportunities for conversation about race, representation and urban life. Kris Graves Projects was originally founded as a gallery space in Dumbo, Brooklyn, and in 2011, KGP expanded into publishing, recognizing that books and prints have the unique ability to make fine art both accessible and affordable. In 2020, Chris created Monolith as a publishing imprint to celebrate, recognize and lift up BIPOC art by publishing artists who have historically been denied opportunities to gain a wider audience for their work. Welcome to the podcast, Kris Graves. I really appreciate you doing this today. I'm really excited.

Kris Graves  01:45
Thanks for having me.

Jennifer Yoffy  01:47
Yeah, of course. I've obviously known you for a while, as a publisher, and also as a photographer, and I've been reading a lot about you in prepping for this interview. And something that I know about your work is that you represent culture in your photography, and you really use it as a platform to talk about social issues and groups of people that maybe are marginalized. But, I was wondering if you've always been interested in representing culture in your photography - you've been photographing for a long time - or is that been something that's been more of an evolution as you've matured as an artist? 

Kris Graves  02:28
Well, I mean, that's a good question. What is culture? I think that we, yeah, I don't know. I mean, American landscapes is what I've been photographing for my entire career. Maybe more. These days, it seems like it's more political in nature, which I guess leads to it being more cultural, because people actually care. But, I think before I was still making photographs of America, it was just probably not as direct or political. So yeah, I think I've always been making some cultural photographs just because, you know, it's the street. I don't photograph still lifes in a studio, I'm outside photographing, usually, urban landscapes. You know, like, I photographed Queens a lot, especially Western Queens and development and the gentrification. And everything else that came with that over the past 15 years. Yeah, about 17 to 18 years. And so that is one piece. I mean, I just keep a camera on me. So I'm just photographing everything all the time. That's pretty much how it goes.

Jennifer Yoffy  03:37
What sort of things catch your eye?

Kris Graves  03:42
Oddities or just pieces that I feel like, I can't believe this exists for better or worse, it's usually for worse. Like, you're finding spaces where you're like, "Oh, my God, this building is ridiculous." It's a good question. I want to photograph post development, meaning like, I don't photograph things in development. I'm not like photographing a bunch of like decay or new landscapes or new architecture that doesn't exist yet. Like orange buildings are like kind of in construction buildings. I wait until the stuff is done usually to kind of see what the neighborhood has become. So then I photographed things like that. But not in progress. I'm kind of photographing things that I think either have just newly been made, or have existed for a long time with like a bunch of neglect. So yeah, so that's how I usually make the landscapes. Most recently, I was down in the South, photographing Confederate monuments and racism in the landscape. I mean, like buildings that were places where slaves were held or, you know, even a George Washington statue, I think is kind of racism in the landscape, but.... So, it varies. It's, um... I really just go on the streets trying to find something. And if I find something I get lucky enough, I get lucky. I mean, that's it. Like it's all about getting lucky. That was a more pointed trip because I had goals in mind, like we were in the car and I was like, we have a map. We're gonna hit everything on this map in the day and hopefully find some more surprises in between, which we always did every day. Because there's so much racism in the landscape, and especially in Georgia. I mean, I was down in Georgia for a while and it was like, you can drive two hours without stopping 15 to 16 times. I mean, our two hour drive took us nine to ten hours, because there was so much to photograph.

Jennifer Yoffy  05:49
Yeah, I actually was gonna ask you so you're talking about the National Geographic assignment that you did? Which really seemed like a perfect fit for the way you want your work to function in the world. Can you talk more about that experience and what it was like for you artistically and personally?

Kris Graves  06:09
Yeah, well, I don't usually do jobs like that, I'm usually photographing for myself. And when I get lucky enough to work with a company like National Geographic to make some photographs of something so specific, you know, it's a pleasure. You know, it's the middle of COVID. We did two road trips, me and a dude named Yoav Horesh did a road trip for seven days through Virginia, Richmond and Charlottesville specifically, in summertime, when there was a lot of protests happening on the streets, as well as statues being torn down. We'd wake up and photograph a statue and at 8am the next day, it will be torn down. I'd crop a group of people and we'd go and photograph the stump, you know. We were lucky enough to do that, like two times. And then I went back to Richmond with my friend Marshall Scheuttle. We had 24-day-trip around the South through eight States. We drove about 3,500 miles, I think over 3,500 miles and stopped a lot, made a lot of photographs, saw a lot of racism, a lot, some that we didn't even photograph because it was like time to go. I mean, we could see that we were in neighborhoods that was like, there's too many people looking at us kind of strange. And we don't want to stick around to figure out what what's next in this. So, we're still alive, which is good. I mean that we didn't have like terrible encounters for the most part. And we had friends along the way, which made it much easier. I mean, Atlanta, a bunch of people in Atlanta that we saw like family and friends and Montgomery, Alabama is where my people, like my dad's side of the families from, so we stopped there Richmond's great. So, we had a good time with people in most of those places. And then we went up to like, Tennessee and West Virginia and Kentucky. And it was like, okay, well, it's a little different up here. New states for me, I'm just knocking off states also, I don't think I answered any of your questions. But...

Jennifer Yoffy  08:17
That's okay. So artistically, it sounds like it was just so much opportunity and material, like you said, You stopped 15 times and what should have been a two hour drive. So there was a bounty of subject matter. What was it like for you personally, to spend that much time photographing racism in the landscape? 

Kris Graves  08:42
It's, it was a, it was quite a trip. I mean, I wasn't scared. I mean, I think I was with someone who I trusted. And we were looking out for each other in a way, so I felt totally comfortable. And it's weird to be on a road trip during the middle of like, COVID. I mean, that's to stay in 15 different houses or 16 different hotels or Airbnbs for four weeks was a little bit disconcerting, but you know, we're still alive. So. So I guess it was okay. But, I think that it was nice. The trip was cool. It was a lot of driving, a lot of stopping and a lot of photographing on the go. I mean, we had our schedule was pretty packed. Every day, we, you know, we would wake up, we'd start driving around nine or 10 o'clock in the morning, and we'd stop when it got dark. So and everything in between was stopping to make photographs. I mean, we ate in the car, because you know, you couldn't eat in a restaurant, anything that was always eating in the car and driving to the next location. And we saw, we saw more than I thought we're gonna see, I mean, we probably saw about.... I'm making a book right now for this stuff. And it's like, I have so much it's like 300 or so landmarks. And there was like, over 2000 of them that exists and I photographed about 250 to 300. So I'm not doing any more, unless somebody actually paid me to do more. But, that was quite a..., it was a lot. Every moment was like, where are we going next? There was no like downtime at all. I mean, sometimes at night, I mean, we get back to the, to the spot at 6pm or 7pm. And I would get on the computer, start working on the files from that day, editing down and sending them out. Because some of the articles were happening pretty fast. So, we're trying to figure that stuff out, stuff on the go. But yeah, it was a it was a fun experience. I'd love to do something like that, again, for a different, you know, in a different part of the country. I mean, I don't think driving through the South is, you know, I wish the South look like the West, unfortunately, it doesn't. And fortunately, the West doesn't have the same type of racism. But I'm, I'm sure that there's something to photograph in the West. And I think that'd be a lot of fun to kind of be able to travel around the West of America to do something, do something similar. 

Jennifer Yoffy  11:05
I thought it was interesting. And I actually didn't know this about you that you, you and I have this in common that we both were former gallery owners turn publishers. And I also think that we share this desire to try to do things differently and develop models and projects that are more favorable to artists than maybe exist currently. And speaking for myself, it's really hard. And I've always been glad that I can safely stay on the arts advocate side of things instead of doing what you do, which is trying to balance promoting your own work and also promoting other artists work. And do you ever feel like it's a conflict between being both an artist and a publisher? Or do you feel that one benefits the other? 

Kris Graves 11:54
Well, they have to benefit each other. I think that it's, that's not optional. For me, at least. I mean, if I if I was losing out on one of the things, I'd feel like I was, you know, not being fair to myself, so. So yeah, I think that I do have enough time to do both. I'll continue to work on being a publisher, and an artist. I think that there's a there's a ton of people that follow me as an artist that probably don't know that I'm a publisher and vice versa. No, not maybe vice versa. I think that most people that follow me, as a publisher probably know that I'm an artist, because I make my own, I self-publish. So at some point, they probably seen that I have been a photographer at some point. I don't know if they know that I'm still currently a photographer. But yeah, so that's the deal. They feed off each other for sure. I mean, being involved with photographers opens up my mind to new ways of thinking about making work and experiencing photography. So, yeah, both really helps my career, I would say do you think it helps your career to be? I mean, I mean, I don't know, are you a photographer as well? You are a bit or no?

Jennifer Yoffy  13:05
Closeted. I mean, I make photos, but I don't have that desire to get them out in the world. That's kind of a personal practice for me. I am much more interested in working with other artists and helping them get their work out. But I do see what you're saying about the more work that I see and connect with. And actually, you know, it's one thing to just look at images online or in a portfolio and another to actually work with them. And really getting a deeper understanding of what they're trying to say and how to best edit that and sequence it. It really does push me creatively, which I'm sure it does for you. Do you also feel like it's helped you to build more of a community around your art?

Kris Graves 14:00
Yes, of course. Even before I had the gallery, I had our gallery from 2009 to 2011 in Brooklyn. And before that, I was organizing group shows in Chelsea for like a year. And then before that I was doing this all on the web in like 2006 I had my own like, gallery website with like, 20 artists at a time people that, you know, we were just making, you know, we were helping each other keep active and working. So it was it was a good moment. So we just kind of pushed on that made it into physical gallery exhibitions, and built a mailing list which led to a gallery and, and those same crowd from those earlier shows coming in and supporting us there. I mean, this is all over the course of about four or five years as a start, did a bunch of art fairs did, you know, large publications. So that was like the beginning kind of I mean, I was running that gallery and I was like 25 I think I started so yeah, I was pretty young. But yeah, I think that that connection still exists. I mean, all those, most of those people are still my friends. I mean, I was showing a lot of people that went to my school, which is Purchase College here in New York. And, you know, I would say at least 25 to 50% of the people I work with, are still from Purchase College. I mean, like, people that went to school way after me that I've just been connected to that I still work with, because they're great artists. And it's a great program. So I try to support as much as possible, like my alma mater, as well. So it's a it's a mix of things. But like, these artists are just awesome. And I, the people that I publish, I wish you know, I'm very jealous. They make really great work. And I wish that I had some of that in me. So to publish, it is like...an awesome.... It just, it's really cool to be able to publish the work that, you know, I wish I'd made myself.

Jennifer Yoffy  15:58
Yeah, I feel the same way, 100%. I read in an interview, this is random, but artists working this series might be a detriment. 

Kris Graves  16:11
I think that artists feeling like they have to work. No, I didn't say like that. Not artists, photographers, I think photographers that feel like they must work in series is a little bit much. I don't think that that's the truth,

Jennifer Yoffy  16:23
That it's limiting?

Kris Graves  16:25
Well, it just means that you're you're thinking about multiple photographs to fit into, like this imaginary portfolio that, you know, like, what are you going for, like, Oh, I want 15 good photographs, or I want to have a portfolio of 20 photographs, when you could probably get away with having four, eight or, you know, figuring out how to make one the best and working on that one. I mean, we act as photographers, not painters or other like drawers and takes a painter, like a quarter of a year to make one painting. And they can just put that on the wall. And that can be it. That doesn't have to be 14 more Kerry James Marshall paintings, like if you look at one, you're probably good for that year, right? I mean, that's how I feel about it. I think that there's too much photography in the world, like, obviously, because of Facebook and Instagram and everything else. I mean, not too much. I think that it is..., I think it's nice that there's so much because it kind of dilutes the mediocre or the, the mediocre just becomes this pool. And hopefully the good photographers can stand above that, that kind of ocean, I should say, of other workers that are just making photographs for photo sake, and not for any kind of cultural progression.

 Jennifer Yoffy  17:44
And so you feel like the medium of photography as a whole that being taught that you need 15 to 20 good images to string together a series isn't necessary. It's limiting?

Kris Graves  17:56
I don't, I don't think that it's necessary. I mean, if you're trying to make a book, then yeah, you want to have some more. But I've made a book with eight photographs in it. So I really can't talk. But....

Jennifer Yoffy  18:07
Did you really, one of your own work? 

Kris Graves  18:10
Yeah, I made a series named bleak reality, which is like an oversized book that opens to being a 20 by 24 inch spread, staple bound.  Pretty inexpensive, but has eight photographs, eight photographs where black men were murdered by police officers. I thought that was enough. I didn't photograph more locations. I just did the eight. And you know, kept it pretty simple. And it's you know, it's led to museum acquisitions of my own books, which is a second edition. I mean, low low runs, but still a second edition of that. You know, it's in people's homes and collections. So, so yeah, I mean, I think that the photo, I mean, look, if you had one great work, then you use that one great work until you know, push it until you can't push it anymore. I mean, if you think it's good, and other people think it's good try to make some money off it. I mean, waiting around for anyone else for you to make money in art is like so 2005. At this point, if you don't try to make your money yourself, you're just you're wasting time.

 Jennifer Yoffy  19:11
Agreed. Tell me about Monolith Editions and how you decided to widen the scope. KGP is just photographic books and Monolith - you've widened it to other mediums.

Kris Graves  19:27
Yeah, Kris Graves Projects is photographic people of all backgrounds. Monolith Editions is a is dedicated to people of color in all artistic disciplines, even like poets and writers, eventually. So we are working with a lot of photographers because that's who I know, but we're also mixing that with great writers. And, you know, we have a we have a new book by Rajni Perera a Toronto based Sri Lankan artist who is a painter and a drawer and does all sorts of mixed media works. She's dope. So you know, we're opening, opening it up to not just photography, which I think is really important, really important.

Jennifer Yoffy  20:09
Really exciting. Do you have a plan of how many books a year you want to publish through each? Did you have a plan before? Do you have a goal of how many books you're trying to do?

Kris Graves  20:19
I never have a plan, but I definitely should. Because, you know, like two years ago, I made 28 books. In 2019, I made 28 books last year, I made 18. And that was like, I thought it was way less. I mean, it seems like way less, but this year, I'm trying to keep it below 10. I think that by March, we have two new Monolith books coming out by Nydia Blas and Alex Christopher Williams, both Atlanta artists.

Jennifer Yoffy  20:47
Atlanta. Yeah!

Kris Graves  20:49
But, those come out next month, or later this month, whenever we actually get to press. We have a book by Isaac Diggs and Edward Hillel, which is called Electronic Landscapes and their portraits and landscapes of the Detroit techno music scene, which started techno music. So that's pretty good. I mean, it's awesome. We just got our advanced copy like two days ago. So it is so nice, and huge. I mean, it's like 11 by 14 inches, pretty much. So it's like really, really big, really big. And I didn't understand how big it would be until I put it in my hands. And it was just like, wow, to open up a spread of this and have like, you know, you could have a 12 by 15 inch photograph in there, and it lays flat. So it's really quite beautiful. So that's coming out next month. We have a book by Marshall Scheuttle, which is called Morningstar. And it's a bunch of pictures from kind of Nevada, Las Vegas area. Awesome. I mean, great photographer. All these people are such great photographers, so it's kind of easy to make. Make the shit happen. So. So those one, two, three, four, coming out this year. Rajni's book is actually this year that came out January 1. So that was our brand new book. So we have five already.

 Jennifer Yoffy  22:06
You've got to slowdown is what you're saying. 

Kris Graves  22:09
Yeah, it seems like it's not gonna happen. But, I'll make less than I did last year. 18 last year was a lot. This year, that five plus I have another I do this set called Lost, which is place based books. This year, I wanted to do four or six. But, it looks like I'm going to do another eight. But, it also looks like I'm just going to push that until January 1, 2022. To keep it off of this year's like calendar. Later this year, I have two really great photographers I'm working with that I've worked with before on books, but these are like their second books with me, which are going to be awesome and secret so far. I'm also working on my own books for the summer, which is probably one or two or three books combined into one kind of weird slipcase box situation. I'm trying to figure out how to make a box that holds two books. But, the books can also slide out and it can be sold separately if you didn't want to buy this kind of connected slipcase box thing. So designing that with someone now, dude named Caleb, who works at Luminosity Lab.

Jennifer Yoffy  23:12
Oh yeah, we worked together with the Jonathan Blaustein project. That's right, recently. Yeah. And he got those dope covers, I mean, such great work that he did for you. So great. He's wonderful. So you've had a really active career so far.

Kris Graves  23:30
Active, like a basketball player.

Jennifer Yoffy  23:34
You have so much hustle, which is, I mean, it's one of my favorite things about people. And, and so it's just, it's awesome. And super inspiring to watch.

Kris Graves  23:47
Well, thank you. Yeah, I am not slow at this. I'm doing a lot of work as fast as possible.

Jennifer Yoffy  23:53
So what would you consider to be your biggest wrong turn? Career wise, since you started? 

Kris Graves  24:00
Wrong turn? I don't know, I don't really look back in, in yearning, or whatever. I think it's like, I'm not sad about the past. I'm happy that I've had it. And I had so many opportunities that you know, some are good, some are bad. But they all mixed into me being able to do what I want. I mean, I'm self-employed completely. And I hope I can stay that way. My wife lets me be self-employed, which is great. She has her she has medical for both of us, which is also great. So I've been able to figure out a life that that doesn't make me stressed at all about finding money or working. So I don't think I'd take, I can't take anything back. But, I don't know I feel like I've been working with so many artists over the course of time I think that maybe there's been two or three artists that I've said something to or did something wrong. Not like personally, like not like, I don't think I slighted them or like, I wasn't, I didn't do anything illegal to these artists, you know, it was just more like, I probably said the wrong words or thought that we were too familiar when we weren't or like stuff like that, which, which kind of gets to me sometimes, but um, besides just like artists relations and wanting to have perfect artists relations all the time, you know, I've been okay.

Jennifer Yoffy  25:26
It sounds like you're grateful for everything that's happened good and bad. And that even though there may have been some things that in the moment seemed like a negative, you learn from them and then engineered in such a great place now that it kind of all worked out. In the end.

Kris Graves  25:43
I think that the negative I mean, negatives, I've just wanted so bad to turn the negatives into positives. Yeah, like I remember, renting out gallery space in Chelsea. And the gallery was like $2,000 for two or three weeks, and I would pull together artists money, but it was never enough. And I had to like buy wine for the openings and food, like maybe some food for the openings. And we'd have these enormous parties, I mean, there would be three or four or 500 people trying to get into a gallery space that did not accommodate it. So we, the hallways would be lined with people the elevator up to the..., it was packed. There's people in the street trying to get in to this, like the party. So that was really cool. But I mean, on the back end, I was probably losing five to $1,000, a show, which turned into at least 10 grand of debt very quickly. And you know, I work that debt off for years, years and years, more than five years trying to work off that debt because I was making $12 or $15 an hour for so long. So those things. Yeah, I mean, maybe I shouldn't have done those things. But also it led to me still having a lot of those friends.

Jennifer Yoffy  26:55
Yeah, building that community that you talked about earlier. 

Kris Graves  26:58
Yeah. It's like if I didn't do those openings, then I would have never met Humble Arts Foundation guys because I met them as soon as they moved to New York. And we've worked together so much in the past few years that you know, it's worth it. You know, I, I cannot imagine not having known them. And I've met like a bunch of artists that I showed later in the gallery like Sarah Macel, and just great workers, and having that community was worth more than the debt. 

Jennifer Yoffy  27:31
Yeah, that's such a that's a great story. Thank you for sharing that. What would you say was the best decision you made? And did you see it that way at the time?

Kris Graves  27:41
Best decision, best decision was getting married to the wife that I have. I mean, that has to be like, currently my best decision just because she's, she's like, she keeps me going. I mean, she works for the ACLU as a policy director, and she's like, last year helped almost 3,000 people get out of prison in New Jersey. I mean, like that is more than I think that I would ever be able to do for people in the lifetime. And that was one of her jobs.

Jennifer Yoffy  28:10
Wow, wow.  

Kris Graves  28:12
She keeps me going for real, like she keeps me very honest. And I appreciate her hustle, and it makes me hustle. So yeah, my wife is the best thing ever to happen to me. Career wise, you know, this National Geographic stuff is probably going to turn into one of the best things that happened to me just because based purely on the amount of people that get to see it. I mean, I have to imagine millions of people have seen at least the one photograph that was on the cover of last month's issue.

Jennifer Yoffy  28:40
It's so good. And you know, I told you, I grew up in Richmond. So that statue is intensely part of the fabric of growing up there. My mother grew up on Monument Avenue. My grandfather grew up on Monument Avenue. It is...

Kris Graves  29:01
...it is your history. 

Jennifer Yoffy  29:02
Well yeah, for better or for worse...

Kris Graves  29:06
Yeah, exactly. And, Richmond’s so small that you can't not see that stuff, right.

Jennifer Yoffy  29:10
You cannot not see it.

Kris Graves  29:12
No way.

Jennifer Yoffy  29:14
Yeah, I couldn't even begin to count the number of times I've passed it, climbed on it as a kid, you know, the Lee Monument? Yeah, it's insane.

Kris Graves  29:26
And it's still there, which is also insane. So we hope that these things can go away. They never will. Those plants are pure, pure stone, which definitely could be used for some public housing, I presume. But they won't because that's how our world works. Yeah, so working with National Geographic has been really cool, really great. And they're open to new opportunities. Like open to me, pitching things and like, seeing what's next. But, that's so new still. I mean, it seems like old to me because I've made those photographs last year, and months seem like years these days with like Coronavirus, and being home all the time. So we'll see what's next. I would love to travel. But it's Corona time. I don't know. I mean, I see a bunch of friends getting on planes and stuff like that. But I don't know if I'm ready for that.

Jennifer Yoffy  30:18
Mm hmm. I know, I feel the same way. So we talked about you, you know, have hustle in spades, which is super admirable and inspiring. What do you still want to accomplish that you haven't already?

Kris Graves  30:34
I... accomplish, hmm? Again, I think that I don't think about that stuff. I don't think about like, what I have not or what I have done. I just kind of..., I just want to keep moving forward. I mean, all these questions are, like, valid, but a lot of people want certain awards. And so and I still will apply for some stuff, but it's not, I don't really care. I don't care so much about what other people think about my work, or if they're, like, willing to give me an award for it. Sometimes if there's a lot of money involved, that sounds really good. But, it works both ways. I mean, like, nothing's free. I mean, like getting a grant is not free money, you still have to produce something or, you know, make prints or anything and really think about the stuff. So...

Jennifer Yoffy  31:33
Right. It's not a prize, it's an assignment essentially.

Kris Graves  31:35
Every time, yeah. So, you know, even a residency is not a prize. It's like you, you go up there and you do work and you hopefully come out of the residency with some more thoughts to lead you into the future and hopefully that all helps your career. In my case, it definitely has. I mean, I've only applied for one or two things per year, and I've been able to get a few. Like the last two years..., two years? Damn, like time is crazy. But yeah, I applied for Light Work's residency and you know, is the first time I ever applied and I got it, and I was very happy about that. That was really cool. Like the next year, last year, I did the CPW Center for Photography Woodstock residency, and you know, I'd never, I don't think I'd apply for that before and I got that. So that was, that was awesome. And this year, I applied for something or last year I applied for something called the Aftermath Project, which is more of a grant than a residency. And I got that. So, I've been super lucky to get this stuff.

Jennifer Yoffy  32:07
And super talented; helps.

Kris Graves  32:36
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of talent, there's a ton of people with talent, I think that I fit into a piece of the photography world that you know, most people don't fit into. I photograph very difficult to look at pieces of the landscape. And I hope I do that in a in a way that is not pointing at my views. I don't think that I do. I think that it will be you'd be hard pressed to look at my landscapes and know what my viewpoint was about the photographs, I try to kind of keep that clean. So that you can have your own emotional...

Jennifer Yoffy  33:11
Okay, so you don't feel like you're trying to push your perspective, you're just sort of presenting something for a viewer to react to?

Kris Graves  33:19
The only way that I'm trying to push my perspective is the choice I make in making in what I'm photographing. I think that's the only thing. But, you'd still have to imagine that...like if I'm just photographing these that like these Confederate monuments, you'd have to hope or think that I didn't like the Confederacy but you don't know that in the photographs. It's just a photograph of it. Like, I don't think it glorifies the scenes, what I'm photographing. Maybe it does to some people, maybe it doesn't to others. I think it's just you have to think about it in your mind. And that's how you make your decision. But the photographs are the photographs, there's no like, making things look like heroes or like it's just..., this is a scene. Very German, very straight on. Like you take it as you will it's more about history than my emotions.

Jennifer Yoffy  34:24
So, KGP, my gallery was Jennifer Schwartz Gallery so JSG - but you're KGP. It's too rhymey, it's too rhymey for me to get it straight.

Kris Graves  34:40
Say that again. J S G

Jennifer Yoffy  34:42
J S G, Jennifer Schwartz Gallery

Kris Graves  34:45
Gotcha  

Jennifer Yoffy  34:45
But you're K...G P (laughs)